So you have Meth Injection.. Are your pistons also cracked??
but I will read all of it
Evolving Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 485
Likes: 1
From: SoCal
First, I have to Thank Richard from Aquamist to even take the time to come to our Forums here on EvoM and help out in this matter. That guy lives in the UK and he is here helping out. That says allot to me. You see any other manufacturer of Meth Kits responding to this??? NOT ONE OTHER.
That says allot about aquamist in my book. BUT, and I SAY BUT, Richard here is the problem. Not many Tuners these days are tuning Evo's on Meth. I know there are some backyard guys that do, and maybe a shop here and there, but any Real Reputable Tuner just shys away from Meth. I feel most of them see these hokey slapped together kits, or self installed kits on the Evo's and tune them, then folks like AWD get calls about blown motors.
I do agree with Richard as well, that AWD should change the Title to "Evo's With Blown Motors" because it does really place blame on the WMI and not the person held accountable for the install, the he tuning, and if the vehicle was even taken care of. There is maintenance that needs to be done on the kits. Its minimal, but still basic common sense goes a long way.
I have been in contact with Jeff Howerton, Emailed Richard a few times over the years, as well as Talked with Evan Smith about WMI. Every tuner, every installer has their own uniquness and has their own area of expertise. I feel with WMI it is so CRUCIAL that these kits be installed and TUNED correctly. Problem I fear is with the cunsumer, they (us) get greedy with power. Power is addictive and people just don't know the limitations of the WMI and think by added 10% more of this, or maxing out this, etc. will create some kind of power balance. In the end all they have is a blown motor.
People, you must know the limitations of anything you put on your Evo. WMI is very very deliquate on the Evo. It can make very consistant and very usable power for minimal cost. That minimal cost is not the Kit itself, but over time being able to run a mix to raise your octane and lower your intake charge, which equals more power. Its UP TO THE USER to ensure that the Tuner knows this. I have personally seen customers go into a tuning shop and say, "I want to run 100% and I want you to get as much power as possible, MAX it out." What people don't realize is you lose your marign of error on the tuners behalf, when you mix lets say 50/50 and you get tuned and you data log later on your own and see a knock count of lets say 4. Well, you can try mixing 60/40 data log and see if it goes away. Most cases that I have seen it does. BUT if you run 100% meth your margin of error is Nil.
We can argue and argue over this post, so my bottom line is this. Get a kit that is primed ALL the time. Use a Quality kit with a known reputation in the car you are using it in. To my knowledge Aquamist is the ONLY company that has any real EVO experience. So why try another company? I did, I won't lie and the kit FAILED!! And the only way I knew it failed was by a FLUKE. I just happend to ask my tuner to try pulls in EVEERY gear and guess what? 1-3 knocked like a son of a gun!!! So question your Tuners, make sure YOU are satisfied and not that the TUNER is satisfied. Because ultimately your the one that will pay in the end.
As of this date, I am running 91 CA **** Gas. I am on the fence on this subject as I am with E85. The closest E85 station from me is 42 miles. I can stock up on fuel and get it once a month and make 400whp all day long. Or I can go with a HFS-3 from Aquamist, ask Evan Smith to tune it and install it for me and make 370whp all day. So which is better? Not sure, but posts like this make you think about things. Especially for me where I drive my Evo Everyday and have kids in the back. Safety becomes an issue. So for now, like the old saying goes,"When in doubt???.......Do Nothing." So thats what I am doing for now.
Jeff
That says allot about aquamist in my book. BUT, and I SAY BUT, Richard here is the problem. Not many Tuners these days are tuning Evo's on Meth. I know there are some backyard guys that do, and maybe a shop here and there, but any Real Reputable Tuner just shys away from Meth. I feel most of them see these hokey slapped together kits, or self installed kits on the Evo's and tune them, then folks like AWD get calls about blown motors.
I do agree with Richard as well, that AWD should change the Title to "Evo's With Blown Motors" because it does really place blame on the WMI and not the person held accountable for the install, the he tuning, and if the vehicle was even taken care of. There is maintenance that needs to be done on the kits. Its minimal, but still basic common sense goes a long way.
I have been in contact with Jeff Howerton, Emailed Richard a few times over the years, as well as Talked with Evan Smith about WMI. Every tuner, every installer has their own uniquness and has their own area of expertise. I feel with WMI it is so CRUCIAL that these kits be installed and TUNED correctly. Problem I fear is with the cunsumer, they (us) get greedy with power. Power is addictive and people just don't know the limitations of the WMI and think by added 10% more of this, or maxing out this, etc. will create some kind of power balance. In the end all they have is a blown motor.
People, you must know the limitations of anything you put on your Evo. WMI is very very deliquate on the Evo. It can make very consistant and very usable power for minimal cost. That minimal cost is not the Kit itself, but over time being able to run a mix to raise your octane and lower your intake charge, which equals more power. Its UP TO THE USER to ensure that the Tuner knows this. I have personally seen customers go into a tuning shop and say, "I want to run 100% and I want you to get as much power as possible, MAX it out." What people don't realize is you lose your marign of error on the tuners behalf, when you mix lets say 50/50 and you get tuned and you data log later on your own and see a knock count of lets say 4. Well, you can try mixing 60/40 data log and see if it goes away. Most cases that I have seen it does. BUT if you run 100% meth your margin of error is Nil.
We can argue and argue over this post, so my bottom line is this. Get a kit that is primed ALL the time. Use a Quality kit with a known reputation in the car you are using it in. To my knowledge Aquamist is the ONLY company that has any real EVO experience. So why try another company? I did, I won't lie and the kit FAILED!! And the only way I knew it failed was by a FLUKE. I just happend to ask my tuner to try pulls in EVEERY gear and guess what? 1-3 knocked like a son of a gun!!! So question your Tuners, make sure YOU are satisfied and not that the TUNER is satisfied. Because ultimately your the one that will pay in the end.
As of this date, I am running 91 CA **** Gas. I am on the fence on this subject as I am with E85. The closest E85 station from me is 42 miles. I can stock up on fuel and get it once a month and make 400whp all day long. Or I can go with a HFS-3 from Aquamist, ask Evan Smith to tune it and install it for me and make 370whp all day. So which is better? Not sure, but posts like this make you think about things. Especially for me where I drive my Evo Everyday and have kids in the back. Safety becomes an issue. So for now, like the old saying goes,"When in doubt???.......Do Nothing." So thats what I am doing for now.
Jeff
First, I have to Thank Richard from Aquamist to even take the time to come to our Forums here on EvoM and help out in this matter. That guy lives in the UK and he is here helping out. That says allot to me. You see any other manufacturer of Meth Kits responding to this??? NOT ONE OTHER.
That says allot about aquamist in my book. BUT, and I SAY BUT, Richard here is the problem. Not many Tuners these days are tuning Evo's on Meth. I know there are some backyard guys that do, and maybe a shop here and there, but any Real Reputable Tuner just shys away from Meth. I feel most of them see these hokey slapped together kits, or self installed kits on the Evo's and tune them, then folks like AWD get calls about blown motors.
I do agree with Richard as well, that AWD should change the Title to "Evo's With Blown Motors" because it does really place blame on the WMI and not the person held accountable for the install, the he tuning, and if the vehicle was even taken care of. There is maintenance that needs to be done on the kits. Its minimal, but still basic common sense goes a long way.
I have been in contact with Jeff Howerton, Emailed Richard a few times over the years, as well as Talked with Evan Smith about WMI. Every tuner, every installer has their own uniquness and has their own area of expertise. I feel with WMI it is so CRUCIAL that these kits be installed and TUNED correctly. Problem I fear is with the cunsumer, they (us) get greedy with power. Power is addictive and people just don't know the limitations of the WMI and think by added 10% more of this, or maxing out this, etc. will create some kind of power balance. In the end all they have is a blown motor.
People, you must know the limitations of anything you put on your Evo. WMI is very very deliquate on the Evo. It can make very consistant and very usable power for minimal cost. That minimal cost is not the Kit itself, but over time being able to run a mix to raise your octane and lower your intake charge, which equals more power. Its UP TO THE USER to ensure that the Tuner knows this. I have personally seen customers go into a tuning shop and say, "I want to run 100% and I want you to get as much power as possible, MAX it out." What people don't realize is you lose your marign of error on the tuners behalf, when you mix lets say 50/50 and you get tuned and you data log later on your own and see a knock count of lets say 4. Well, you can try mixing 60/40 data log and see if it goes away. Most cases that I have seen it does. BUT if you run 100% meth your margin of error is Nil.
We can argue and argue over this post, so my bottom line is this. Get a kit that is primed ALL the time. Use a Quality kit with a known reputation in the car you are using it in. To my knowledge Aquamist is the ONLY company that has any real EVO experience. So why try another company? I did, I won't lie and the kit FAILED!! And the only way I knew it failed was by a FLUKE. I just happend to ask my tuner to try pulls in EVEERY gear and guess what? 1-3 knocked like a son of a gun!!! So question your Tuners, make sure YOU are satisfied and not that the TUNER is satisfied. Because ultimately your the one that will pay in the end.
As of this date, I am running 91 CA **** Gas. I am on the fence on this subject as I am with E85. The closest E85 station from me is 42 miles. I can stock up on fuel and get it once a month and make 400whp all day long. Or I can go with a HFS-3 from Aquamist, ask Evan Smith to tune it and install it for me and make 370whp all day. So which is better? Not sure, but posts like this make you think about things. Especially for me where I drive my Evo Everyday and have kids in the back. Safety becomes an issue. So for now, like the old saying goes,"When in doubt???.......Do Nothing." So thats what I am doing for now.
Jeff
That says allot about aquamist in my book. BUT, and I SAY BUT, Richard here is the problem. Not many Tuners these days are tuning Evo's on Meth. I know there are some backyard guys that do, and maybe a shop here and there, but any Real Reputable Tuner just shys away from Meth. I feel most of them see these hokey slapped together kits, or self installed kits on the Evo's and tune them, then folks like AWD get calls about blown motors.
I do agree with Richard as well, that AWD should change the Title to "Evo's With Blown Motors" because it does really place blame on the WMI and not the person held accountable for the install, the he tuning, and if the vehicle was even taken care of. There is maintenance that needs to be done on the kits. Its minimal, but still basic common sense goes a long way.
I have been in contact with Jeff Howerton, Emailed Richard a few times over the years, as well as Talked with Evan Smith about WMI. Every tuner, every installer has their own uniquness and has their own area of expertise. I feel with WMI it is so CRUCIAL that these kits be installed and TUNED correctly. Problem I fear is with the cunsumer, they (us) get greedy with power. Power is addictive and people just don't know the limitations of the WMI and think by added 10% more of this, or maxing out this, etc. will create some kind of power balance. In the end all they have is a blown motor.
People, you must know the limitations of anything you put on your Evo. WMI is very very deliquate on the Evo. It can make very consistant and very usable power for minimal cost. That minimal cost is not the Kit itself, but over time being able to run a mix to raise your octane and lower your intake charge, which equals more power. Its UP TO THE USER to ensure that the Tuner knows this. I have personally seen customers go into a tuning shop and say, "I want to run 100% and I want you to get as much power as possible, MAX it out." What people don't realize is you lose your marign of error on the tuners behalf, when you mix lets say 50/50 and you get tuned and you data log later on your own and see a knock count of lets say 4. Well, you can try mixing 60/40 data log and see if it goes away. Most cases that I have seen it does. BUT if you run 100% meth your margin of error is Nil.
We can argue and argue over this post, so my bottom line is this. Get a kit that is primed ALL the time. Use a Quality kit with a known reputation in the car you are using it in. To my knowledge Aquamist is the ONLY company that has any real EVO experience. So why try another company? I did, I won't lie and the kit FAILED!! And the only way I knew it failed was by a FLUKE. I just happend to ask my tuner to try pulls in EVEERY gear and guess what? 1-3 knocked like a son of a gun!!! So question your Tuners, make sure YOU are satisfied and not that the TUNER is satisfied. Because ultimately your the one that will pay in the end.
As of this date, I am running 91 CA **** Gas. I am on the fence on this subject as I am with E85. The closest E85 station from me is 42 miles. I can stock up on fuel and get it once a month and make 400whp all day long. Or I can go with a HFS-3 from Aquamist, ask Evan Smith to tune it and install it for me and make 370whp all day. So which is better? Not sure, but posts like this make you think about things. Especially for me where I drive my Evo Everyday and have kids in the back. Safety becomes an issue. So for now, like the old saying goes,"When in doubt???.......Do Nothing." So thats what I am doing for now.
Jeff
Jeff, without naming names, what compelled you to purchase the other kit. Knowing that you are quite careful.
I have spent most of my time explaining to people how our system work and why it does "not" deliver fluid the same way as a PPS (progressive pump speed) system. Most people just don't care as long as it is cheaper.
It is loose, loose situation for us. Loosing sales and loosing time defending bad results on their behalf.
I have spent most of my time explaining to people how our system work and why it does "not" deliver fluid the same way as a PPS (progressive pump speed) system. Most people just don't care as long as it is cheaper.
It is loose, loose situation for us. Loosing sales and loosing time defending bad results on their behalf.
Last edited by Richard L; Aug 21, 2010 at 03:12 AM.
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Evolving Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 343
Likes: 0
From: .
Without naming names, what compelled you to purchase the other kit. Knowing that you are quite careful.
I have spent most of my time explaining to people how our system work and why it does "not" deliver fluid the same way as a PPS (progressive pump speed) system. Most people just don't care as long as it is cheaper.
It is loose, loose situation for us. Loosing sales and loosing time defending bad results on their behalf.
I have spent most of my time explaining to people how our system work and why it does "not" deliver fluid the same way as a PPS (progressive pump speed) system. Most people just don't care as long as it is cheaper.
It is loose, loose situation for us. Loosing sales and loosing time defending bad results on their behalf.
Newbie
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
From: az
Aquamist system installed by the man esevo is the way to go period!!!!!!!!! Richard knows his water meth facts and esevo knows how to tune them and what mixtures work best. esevos installs look sooooooooooooooo clean or stealthy esevo is the man on anything evo..
There are other factors that will influence people's decision to opt for WMI or E85.
At present, it is weighing heavily on E85 such the poster has used a very negative post to dis-credit WMI. Most forum will moderate and come down hard on this type of thread when a vendor using this type of tactic to pormote their own product agianst other vendors' product, however probable or plausible. This is just not the way to conduct oneself and dis-respectful to other product maker.
WMI, when it is properly implemented, has many advantages over E85. UI will list a few I can think of:
1) Only consumes w/m when it is needed, E85 injection is a full time affair.
2) Meth is much cheaper than E85 and water is ever cheaper.
3) Equipment installation does not require majoy changes to the stock fuelling system.
4) Transfer of WMI to another vehicle is simple.
5) Methanol is readily available anywhere.
6) Power impovement can be as good as E85 IMHO.
I will tried to think of a few more...
At present, it is weighing heavily on E85 such the poster has used a very negative post to dis-credit WMI. Most forum will moderate and come down hard on this type of thread when a vendor using this type of tactic to pormote their own product agianst other vendors' product, however probable or plausible. This is just not the way to conduct oneself and dis-respectful to other product maker.
WMI, when it is properly implemented, has many advantages over E85. UI will list a few I can think of:
1) Only consumes w/m when it is needed, E85 injection is a full time affair.
2) Meth is much cheaper than E85 and water is ever cheaper.
3) Equipment installation does not require majoy changes to the stock fuelling system.
4) Transfer of WMI to another vehicle is simple.
5) Methanol is readily available anywhere.
6) Power impovement can be as good as E85 IMHO.
I will tried to think of a few more...
Last edited by Richard L; Aug 21, 2010 at 07:02 AM.
Why ? Ughhhh...so frustrating that threads like this are allowed to stay open...Just imagine if someone posted a thread - Drag Racing Destroys Cars and posted all the blown motors and drivetrains....Clearly misleading....
The facts and title of the original post are very misleading. There are thousands of cars running water/methanol/alky kits and properly installed (with good failsafes) have proven to be reliable, effective, and relatively inexpensive.
e85 / other is great too and yes if available in my area I would opt to use it over Meth/Water injection, but only because I believe I could simplify my setup and get even more hp. Unfortunately for me though, e85 is not readily available and therefore not a viable option.
The facts and title of the original post are very misleading. There are thousands of cars running water/methanol/alky kits and properly installed (with good failsafes) have proven to be reliable, effective, and relatively inexpensive.
e85 / other is great too and yes if available in my area I would opt to use it over Meth/Water injection, but only because I believe I could simplify my setup and get even more hp. Unfortunately for me though, e85 is not readily available and therefore not a viable option.
Newbie
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
From: finland
I think this thread has been very good reading, good info on WMI as long as you keep some common sense.
I'm currently running WMI and counting more knocks on cyls #1 #2 than with the others and this thread has been extremely helpful in rooting out the cause. (nozzle placement)
My take on the WMI has anyways always been to make the same tune i run now work better. so not to go over the top with afr 14 and insane timing advantages. Just to reduce the chance of knocking in more extreme conditions and long pulls.
What really surprises me in forums like this is the amount of people not actually tuning their own cars, or even logging data on them. It is good to have a pro tune your car to get to a good starting point, but the finer tuning is so time intensive that i don't believe any shop can provide you with so much dyno-time.
Maybe change the topic to just "WMI discussion"
I'm currently running WMI and counting more knocks on cyls #1 #2 than with the others and this thread has been extremely helpful in rooting out the cause. (nozzle placement)
My take on the WMI has anyways always been to make the same tune i run now work better. so not to go over the top with afr 14 and insane timing advantages. Just to reduce the chance of knocking in more extreme conditions and long pulls.
What really surprises me in forums like this is the amount of people not actually tuning their own cars, or even logging data on them. It is good to have a pro tune your car to get to a good starting point, but the finer tuning is so time intensive that i don't believe any shop can provide you with so much dyno-time.
Maybe change the topic to just "WMI discussion"
I think this thread has been very good reading, good info on WMI as long as you keep some common sense.
I'm currently running WMI and counting more knocks on cyls #1 #2 than with the others and this thread has been extremely helpful in rooting out the cause. (nozzle placement)
My take on the WMI has anyways always been to make the same tune i run now work better. so not to go over the top with afr 14 and insane timing advantages. Just to reduce the chance of knocking in more extreme conditions and long pulls.
What really surprises me in forums like this is the amount of people not actually tuning their own cars, or even logging data on them. It is good to have a pro tune your car to get to a good starting point, but the finer tuning is so time intensive that i don't believe any shop can provide you with so much dyno-time.
Maybe change the topic to just "WMI discussion"
I'm currently running WMI and counting more knocks on cyls #1 #2 than with the others and this thread has been extremely helpful in rooting out the cause. (nozzle placement)
My take on the WMI has anyways always been to make the same tune i run now work better. so not to go over the top with afr 14 and insane timing advantages. Just to reduce the chance of knocking in more extreme conditions and long pulls.
What really surprises me in forums like this is the amount of people not actually tuning their own cars, or even logging data on them. It is good to have a pro tune your car to get to a good starting point, but the finer tuning is so time intensive that i don't believe any shop can provide you with so much dyno-time.
Maybe change the topic to just "WMI discussion"
Newbie
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
From: finland
with ionization current sensing, its standard in some ECUs. you can find lots of papers on it by googling "ionization current knock detection" or such.
good source for data:
http://www.fs.isy.liu.se/Publications/
Last edited by lekonna; Aug 21, 2010 at 10:51 PM.
seriously, why are so many scared of a meth/water mix? to be honest if your evo is a DD, and i mean its your only means of transpertation then maybe a daily driven 4,5,6 hundred HP car is a little rediculious to begin with. However if your like me and your evo is a garage Queen or weekend warrior that you put very little miles on, then be VERY CREATIVE with your BUILD!!! create a v8 destroyer, got me people???