Before it got cut up, the white Evo weighed 2950 with a 10 pt mild steel cage, seats, half the interior, most of the "accessories", it now weighs 2490 but there is definitely stuff we'd leave if we were doing the lightening (last owner was responsible for the butcher job). I would like to see someone that wants to do an Open Light car have us build a motor just so I can get nutty with the challenge. At the same time I would like someone just have us do something with our Open Class engine program

aaron

 

130/130 @ 0psi, the graph was up here?

 

I think you'll find your pushing it uphill with a pointy stick .

When the 2000 Super Tourer series tarmac cars were around the works teams went to some dizzy lengths to screw horsepower out of one time production engines . Nissan did a job on SR20s that almost defied belief .
Turned the head around and drove the cams from the opposite end and opposite direction . Changed the bore and stroke from I think 85 square to 89 x 80 etc , squillion dollar engines .

A 4G doesn't really have wide enough bore centers to accept big bores and the shorter stroke , as you've said the head is not really designed to be a high revving thing in an NA state .
I'd think the inlet manifold was designed to work up to a lowish point and have the dryer stuff it in further up .

I would have though for rally you would be chasing torque even if it was a peaky thing driving through a close ratio gearbox Cosworth BDA Escort style .

I think the overall problem is that you are attempting to change the factory DNA and engineering over design is the only slim chance this project has . You could spend a lot of money and still paint yourself into corners .

No I think keep the turbocharging and maybe take a close look at the bleeding edge of what Mitsy did in the dieing days of the old FIA Grp A and WRC rally classes .
Still the same thing , monstrous torque over as broad a range as the restrictor will allow meaning starting as early as possible and with ALS if allowed .
You may want to look seriously at slightly smaller turbos (compressor wheels) , correct me if I'm wrong but I think one of the TD05HRA 16G Evo 6 TME turbos actually used a 65mm major diameter compressor wheel and I can only think this would take a small amount of inertia out and get it cranking a little sooner than the 68mm 16G versions .
Boost earlier means torque earlier and I think you could widen the usable rev range by starting earlier and finishing at the same revs .

I remember talking to people back in the days when Tommi was king of Grp A (in about 99-2000) and they said the works engines were cranking out about 650 Nm of torque and the drivers were changing up at about 5200 because the restrictor limited how much the atmosphere could push in .
Obviously gear ratios were critical to keeping those engines on the boil , the ALS was very hard on everything that saw fire and very exotic materials were needed to make it all survive .

Somewhere else I'd be very interested to hear about your restricted rally spec engines , cheers A .

 

I think there's quite a bit of confusion on what these guys were building the car for. Open Light is a class all its own for N/A AWD cars. They are *not* competing against the other Open class cars like ACP, Pastrana, or Block. As a matter of fact, Open Light is a "regional class" only, so in some regards, even though you're on the same roads, you're not even being scored in the same event.

The big problem I see for using an Evo for this class is that they are just plain bigger cars than the GC8 imprezas, which the class was basically designed for. Subaru a corporate sponsor...you bet! Not that the subaru powerplant is a big N/A screamer, but a cheap GC8 in rally trim can easily weigh a touch over 2600 lbs.

FWIW, 130/130 isn't all that bad. My turbo'd GTX was 160/160 and I'm guessing that included the BS ~1.20 correction factor. I did run it at one event N/A (1.8L 9.0:1 compression) and there's something just plain fun about being flat-footed through stuff, vs. on and off the brakes. Would I trade my hillclimb evo for the GTX...no way in hell...but it was still a really fun car to toss around.

@ discopotato: just wanted to confirm that the stock IX turbo is pretty damn capable on a 32mm restrictor, there's a reason Mitsu put them on the Evos for homologation purposes, just look at IRC results. Once you're allowed to step up to a 34, 40 or 45 mm restrictors, there is likely a need for a larger turbo. The TR30R comes to mind and I'm really anxious to see how that'll respond to my setup with proper anti-lag.

Dave

 

Have you considered going to an Evo IV-VI? Much smaller car, and you can easily convert a Mirage into one

 

Its castrated...

Sad Sad Day

 

Compression too low for the S2 cams and E85, S1 would been better.
Stock IM is ok; runner length good, plenum size questionable but not serious.
Header...
A shorter final gear will definitely gets it moving.

At least you have a baseline to work with.

 

Actually I am so with Adrian on this its not even funny. I really want to play with 34mm cars more. Jakes initial setup on the IX turbo on his motor was reasonably impressive for a setup that wasnt meant to be a rally engine. It worked into that to satisfy my curiosity and showed me that 300+whp wasnt as hard as I had thought given what I was working with.

TME 6.5 Ti/Inconel with billet compressor wheel is what I am thinking for a "budget" turbo, lets call it a TR15R

650nm = 479 ft lbs. We made 433 at only 24.8psi without trying to push it, so I think we can make as much as it made unrestricted (495 ft lbs at 27.8psi / 670nm). I am going to test the same basic setup we did on Jakes with an engineered restrictor and use the MIVEC to broaden the power band. Probably a winter project but we'll see if I end up with some time.

aaron

 

Just get some aluminum body panels and doors going. That should help on the weight and if I had the money, I'd buy them.

With regards to weight though, all of these low-9 second 2600 pound "Street Cars" are full of ****. My car is stripped to hell and it is 2950. Yes, there are some big ticket items I can do, but they are only going to grab me 125-150 pounds. 200 more off that is MASSIVE. Either those cars aren't 2600, or they are lying their asses off about what's been done for weight reduction.

 

use the Mirage! 2600lbs in full street trim, with radio and spare wheel and tools! brrrmmm

 

One thing not being covered here, is rpm of a N/A 4g64, an a lr2.4l, with less stress without a turbo I dont see 9k being a problem at all as MAP is doing it at 1000whp+. **** might even be able to rev to 9.5k.

Heres the setup Id run if money allowed lr2.4l, manley billet crank, grp aluminum rods, wiseco or je 14:1-16:1 comp, magnus v5, 75mm tb, Cold air intake with a velocity stack, no filter just a turbo screen, RPW long tube 4-1 race header, 2.5" or 2.75" straight exhaust with muffler, RPW custom rally cams, dual valve springs, 2mm+ in/ex valves, cnc ported head, dei intake cooler kit, dei fuel coolerkit, carbon fiber hood, roof, fenders, doors, driveshaft, sparktech cop obviously a fuel system for 500whp on e98, just to be sure lol.

After all that and 30k plus into it youll be back to a stock turbo evo with a few bolt-ons, 350+awhp lol

 

Rev limiting factor based on rod stress isn't so much effected by boost levels. As far as rev limit is concerned, on an N/A car its the changing of direction of the piston that causes the largest stress on the rod (Excluding detonation, but even that is opposing the forces cause by piston direction change).

 

+100000

 

I remember looking at a spec sheet for the whole range of Evolution series Lancers (well 1-9 anyway) because I was interested to see where my JDM E6GSR fitted in . I wanted to know how much larger and heavier my 6 was over an Evo 3 because friends of mine used to hold the 3s on a pedestal .
I can't quote exact numbers but the 6GSR is supposed to weight 1360 Kg , the 6RS 1260 Kg and the 3RS I think around 1180 odd Kg .

The things that make the difference GSR to RS are the roadie bits like rear wiper , thicker glass , fast glass , sound gear and AC , AYC vs mechanical rear diff . Also wheel weights , I think my 6 lost 2.5 Kg per corner going from the std Oz Racing wheels to the Enkei RPF1s .
Can obviously go further with aluminium hat section discs titanium exhausts etc etc .

I think this is a situation where turbos needs ***** and being a competition app hopefully the budget suits the cause . Throwing a grand or more at a turbo , even a std spec one , helps pay off in the little bit here little bit there mindset . Should be less failure prone with rolling element bearings .

I can't remember if its been mentioned here but higher CR engines are always going to want to pull sooner and make more torque per pound of boost than lower ones .
Cooling is obviously absolutely critical and people here seriously rallying were using blanking tubes instead of thermostats to ensure best cooling water flow . I'm a believer in ceramics on valve heads and piston crowns , I haven't used them on chambers but anything that keeps the heat out of the guides/chambers/coolant has to be a good thing . More heat available to develop cylinder pressure and to drive the turbine with .

JD here , Aussie class winner at Pikes Peak , tells me that the 6s were the last true homologation special Evos and things changed a bit when Mitsy went to the larger Cedia based platform for the Evos 7-9 . The WRC rules allowed significant changes from the base road car ie suspension location points so the manufactures to go back to building shall we say more "road user friendly" cars for the buying public .
If you could get your hands on a 6RS you would be getting closer to the weight of a GC8 and where a 6 engine goes a 9 can too . Probably the most significant driveline difference is the ACD which started in the Evo 7s .
Probably not impossible to get in a 6 if you really wanted it but many comp cars don't run it .

OT , I'd like to take a base ball bat to Garrett for not using the turbine and compressor wheels from the TR30R turbochargers in their aftermarket GT BB range . Blind Freddy can see that the big trim UHP turbines and usually big trim BCI-18 compressors don't cut it any more .
Other manufacturers are getting better results from smaller trim wheels in reasonably big diameters and leaving the performance of Garrett's turbos behind - particularly the twin scroll ones .
If interested compare the TR30R versions with the GT3071R/GT3076R GT BB Garrett's and you'll know where the power with response lies .

Anyway I think minimum weight and maximum torque can take the fight to ram raider (Rex) and if you attack the GC8s weight distribution/handling issues you may come out on top .

The converted over here call Subaru engines water cooled dak daks !
Ah , in Australia ancient air cooled VW Beatles were called dak daks because of the exhaust note , showing my age here .....

A .