So, which turbo-kit would you choose?
Anyone in the single digit club want to add anything?
Froma street driven perspective, I have had a cast 2G manifold on my GVR4 for about 5 years now....not a single crack on it.
Can you crack a cast manifold? Sure- if you run lean enough for a long enough amount of time, you'll see very prominent white areas on the manifold. Even with some mild cracking though, they are still tough as nails.
kevo - on many cars I would agree that a good manifold is everything...on an Evo (or virtually any 4G63 for that matter), its such a short path from the head to where one conventionally mounts the turbo, it makes little to no difference. Remember, you can alter the spool characteristics of the car much quicker and easier via tuning and playing around with different exhaust AR's as you can by constantly trying new manifold designs.
Can you crack a cast manifold? Sure- if you run lean enough for a long enough amount of time, you'll see very prominent white areas on the manifold. Even with some mild cracking though, they are still tough as nails.
kevo - on many cars I would agree that a good manifold is everything...on an Evo (or virtually any 4G63 for that matter), its such a short path from the head to where one conventionally mounts the turbo, it makes little to no difference. Remember, you can alter the spool characteristics of the car much quicker and easier via tuning and playing around with different exhaust AR's as you can by constantly trying new manifold designs.
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From: Worst place on Earth!
Originally Posted by HIGH REV
I beg to differ on some of the things said here and I'd like to take this opportunity to reply.
First of all, Al's running a highly tuned motor, much more than what most of us will be running. If he breaks something, it's more likely because of his own doing, experimentation, and recklessness. I admire his enthusiasm and his courage to go forward with his car's performance, but it's not a route I'm taking. You cannot blame the product if the consumer tends to go beyond the acceptable threshold of the product. Al is after all, nuts(!) compared to most of us.
Secondly, HKS has been tuning 4G63 engines ever since it went into production in Japan. HKS has been heavily involved in tuning The Evo ever since the car's debut. A quote from Super Street magazine's article on the HKS Evo (Evolution Solution)...
"...HKS has been dating and ******** the Evolution series since its freshman year..."
Freshman year, in this case, being October 1991, if my history memory serves me right.
Buschur on the other hand, although a reputable DSM tuner for many years, to my knowledge, does not have the extensive knowledge of tuning the Evo. Sure they're known for churning out bad *** DSMs, but the Evo is not a DSM. If I'm not mistaken, this is their first official foray into tuning an actual Evolution.
And third and final, yes, HKS has a hand in rally also. Team Mitsubishi, with drivers #1 Dave Higgins and #6 Lauchlin O'Sullivan, both drive Evos equipped with engines built by HKS. As seen on pages 14 to 16 of HCI magazine's article (Evolution Of Greatness), here are some quotes...
"Power for these wicked machines comes by way of a specially built version of the already powerful Mitsubishi 4G63 2.0-liter four-cylinder built from the ground up by HKS."
"...this HKS version produces a neck-snapping 400-plus horsepower at 6500 rpm and 442 lb-ft of torque at 5000 rpm."
But it all boils down to what you prefer. If you still prefer Buschur, for whatever reason you may believe is true, then by all means do what you want. Nobody's gonna slap your hand if you choose Buschur over HKS or Vishnu, or any of the other companies out there trying to make a buck on the Evo. You can do whatever you want. It's a free country.
First of all, Al's running a highly tuned motor, much more than what most of us will be running. If he breaks something, it's more likely because of his own doing, experimentation, and recklessness. I admire his enthusiasm and his courage to go forward with his car's performance, but it's not a route I'm taking. You cannot blame the product if the consumer tends to go beyond the acceptable threshold of the product. Al is after all, nuts(!) compared to most of us.
Secondly, HKS has been tuning 4G63 engines ever since it went into production in Japan. HKS has been heavily involved in tuning The Evo ever since the car's debut. A quote from Super Street magazine's article on the HKS Evo (Evolution Solution)...
"...HKS has been dating and ******** the Evolution series since its freshman year..."
Freshman year, in this case, being October 1991, if my history memory serves me right.
Buschur on the other hand, although a reputable DSM tuner for many years, to my knowledge, does not have the extensive knowledge of tuning the Evo. Sure they're known for churning out bad *** DSMs, but the Evo is not a DSM. If I'm not mistaken, this is their first official foray into tuning an actual Evolution.
And third and final, yes, HKS has a hand in rally also. Team Mitsubishi, with drivers #1 Dave Higgins and #6 Lauchlin O'Sullivan, both drive Evos equipped with engines built by HKS. As seen on pages 14 to 16 of HCI magazine's article (Evolution Of Greatness), here are some quotes...
"Power for these wicked machines comes by way of a specially built version of the already powerful Mitsubishi 4G63 2.0-liter four-cylinder built from the ground up by HKS."
"...this HKS version produces a neck-snapping 400-plus horsepower at 6500 rpm and 442 lb-ft of torque at 5000 rpm."
But it all boils down to what you prefer. If you still prefer Buschur, for whatever reason you may believe is true, then by all means do what you want. Nobody's gonna slap your hand if you choose Buschur over HKS or Vishnu, or any of the other companies out there trying to make a buck on the Evo. You can do whatever you want. It's a free country.
The HKS kit is overpriced junk, to put it simply. They may have a huge operation and a bit of know-how, but their products are overpriced and often junk. Sure, they have some good products, the cams, the EVC V. So if you want to spent $5,000 dollars on a kit that's going to crack and give you a turbo you can buy from any turboshop for half their price, than by all means go HKS. And I know this has been beat to death, but we've had the 4G63 since 1989, - and that doesn't mean anything, maybe all these American tuners just don't know what their doing. GM has been racing front wheel drive cavaliers for two years now with an engine that had zero aftermarket support, guess what, their running 7's and about to break 200 miles an hour. So I don't think HKS having the Evo since 1991 means anything.
I'm just curious of why all the shop car,( Sorry Dave I mean Japanese Shop cars) like Gforce, Apex, HKS, Jun, Cyberevo, All ran with the tubular exhaust. besides cost and durability, whats the down side of them? I'm not trying to argue, just curious why they all use the tubular ones if there is no advantage of them what so ever. You know what I mean? They are the fastest production cars out there at Tsukuba.
I'm open to all kinds of different ideas and designs when modifying my car, I might even try the cast manifold that dave got down the road and see if I like it or just to compare if there are any differences between the two. The advantage of a cast manifold I see right now is they are better suit for a street car because of less mantainance needed and will last longer.
On another note, I remember seeing 2 seperate posts made by Shiv and Al which they both agree (rare) that they can advance more timing on the car with DNP tubular manifold. Here is the quote form Shiv-
"Assuming they were both running test pipes, I think the biggest contributor to the difference in output was the tubular manifold and the XEDE. I dyno tuned another EVO with a tubular manifold this past weekend during the Portland dyno day and it behaved the same in the way that I didn't have to be so conservative with ignition timing and fueling. A good upgraded turbo manifold does wonders when it comes to exhaust backpressure reduction. Not only does this help top end power, it also makes the car far less knock prone which, in itself, means that I can tune more aggressively without fear of knock. This, contrary to a post made in another forum, is the same reason that external wastegates provide power gains over internal wastegates, all other things equal. They greatly reduce the amount of exhaust turbulance in the turbine scroll which means better turbine efficiency."
I'm open to all kinds of different ideas and designs when modifying my car, I might even try the cast manifold that dave got down the road and see if I like it or just to compare if there are any differences between the two. The advantage of a cast manifold I see right now is they are better suit for a street car because of less mantainance needed and will last longer.
On another note, I remember seeing 2 seperate posts made by Shiv and Al which they both agree (rare) that they can advance more timing on the car with DNP tubular manifold. Here is the quote form Shiv-
"Assuming they were both running test pipes, I think the biggest contributor to the difference in output was the tubular manifold and the XEDE. I dyno tuned another EVO with a tubular manifold this past weekend during the Portland dyno day and it behaved the same in the way that I didn't have to be so conservative with ignition timing and fueling. A good upgraded turbo manifold does wonders when it comes to exhaust backpressure reduction. Not only does this help top end power, it also makes the car far less knock prone which, in itself, means that I can tune more aggressively without fear of knock. This, contrary to a post made in another forum, is the same reason that external wastegates provide power gains over internal wastegates, all other things equal. They greatly reduce the amount of exhaust turbulance in the turbine scroll which means better turbine efficiency."
My tube chassis car has a tubular header on it that I built. On the flow bench this header acted like a damn suction machine. The head was so much faster (better flowing) than any cast piece we tried that it wasn't even funny. To give you an idea with the HKS manifold on the car and then switching to the header I built was the equivalant of adding .250 lift to the exhaust cam. That is huge.
On the dyno the gains weren't nearly as noticeable, as a matter of fact if I remember correctly we didn't measure any real gain at all. On the track, if I remember correctly the car was faster/quicker. Confusing stuff.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
On the dyno the gains weren't nearly as noticeable, as a matter of fact if I remember correctly we didn't measure any real gain at all. On the track, if I remember correctly the car was faster/quicker. Confusing stuff.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
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From: BHAM
im in the market for a kit, and i am deciding between RnR, or the BR500 but i am unsure if i can use my stock intercooler w/ either kit....so RnR or Bushcur let me know if i can, and also what type of engine management is needed w/ either kit, could i run the stock ecu w/ just an AFC, and would i need fuel upgrades w/ these kits....
Our turbo kit comes with a lower IC pipe to the stock location. This is just one of the parts that is included to make our kit an easy bolt-on. I would suggest a nice GT30R kit for someone looking to make nice power on their daily driver. If you are more serious and want a lot of power then we suggest the GT35R.
We also offer two different tubular manifolds. A stand tubular manifold and a equal length tubular manifold.
We also offer two different tubular manifolds. A stand tubular manifold and a equal length tubular manifold.
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From: Danville/Blackhawk, California
Originally Posted by evo8power
BUSCHUR baby!! 440 or 500 most unreal kit youll ever get for $2300!!! but you need the staged upgrade paths first, do it the right way, i learned, know my car is rediculous runnig 21psi and smokeing anything, were going to the track tongiht on 27 psi c-16 and seing what she can do!
Shiv
PS. For everyone else, we have a Stage 2 kit which utilizes the ATP turbo kit. It retains the factory twin scroll manifold, a Tial 38mm external wastebate and bolt-on GT3071, 3037 or 35R turbo.
Our Stage 3 kit is our own in-house designed turbo kit which utilizes either a GT3037 or a 35R, a Tial 38mm external wastegate and a tubular 321SS manifold.
The difference between ATP kit and the Stg 3 kit that the tubular manifold set-up results in 250-300rpm less lag and 40-80 more whp (depending on the turbo) above 6500rpm. And that's comparing it to a good cast manifold.
Regards,
shiv
Last edited by shiv@vishnu; Aug 2, 2004 at 09:59 AM.
Shiv your kit must be liek $10,000 your intercooler is $1500 and its stock size....confusing, anyway, from what ive been told, running a big turbo in 100% humidity and 90 degrees on jsut a flash will not suport my modds, AEM EMS is on the way so far 12.4@113 is best, but i can see 12.0 on this stock ecu before ems, 24psi and 112octane
Originally Posted by evo8power
Shiv your kit must be liek $10,000 your intercooler is $1500 and its stock size....confusing
shiv
Originally Posted by David@Vishnu
Incorrect, incorrect and incorrect. But who am I to say anything, you're the one who spent all that money to make your car slower than a stock turbo'd EVO with cams, exhaust, fuel pump and XEDE
shiv
shiv
Last edited by Hooptie157; Aug 2, 2004 at 01:34 PM.