Yorgis_MR

Ok, I have been frustrated by this issue and since I am tired of the local so-called "experts", I decided to come to EvoM for some advice (which I should have dont from the beginning - my mistake).

My car makes the "typical" ball-bearing-dance sound, under low to mid acceleration in pretty much the entire range of gears (again, in low-mid accel., not WOT). I use only the highest grade gasoline and not from one gas station (to avoid the possibility of one sample being tainted). A long while back, I had allowed the antifreeze in the RESERVOIR to get VERY low (way under the MIN mark) but the radiator was full as I discovered. I don't know if this had anything to do with it.

I logged with EvoScan and I am attaching some images that I think are relevant to the problem I am having. The only problem is that I don't know how to change the scale in EvoScan KnockVoltage graph, so the number "25" = 1V, FYI my max was about .97V if I remember correctly. KnockCount was MUCH higher, which is what makes me nervous.

Last night I installed an APS BOV and it seems that it has made the noise much worse (not the level of noise but its frequency - it sounds like it happens on a larger "slice" of the RPM range now).

Anything similar happen to any of you OR do you have any insight about the causes of my issues? I hope that when I forgot to check the antifreeze, did not become the "birht-place" of my issue, because it can lead to much more severe issues.

Thanks to everyone in advance.
Hope everyone had a nice holiday!

PS-I have the log file (3mb) available if anyone needs to see a more "complete" picture.

PS2 - FORGOT to mention that I have an ingals engine damper installed...could that be causing those knocks due to engine harmonics or something like that? (I doubt it, but at this point I am reaching at anything).

C6C6CH3vo

iTrader: (9)

The level should be at "min" level when cold and "max" when hot, never empty. Coolant should never be consumed, but should fill the reservoir as engine cools each use.

Knock voltage tells us NOTHING, useless. Knock sum tells you alot, especially if spark timing decreases alot. 0-15 counts here and there is normal, but continuous spikes every 5 seconds with noise you can hear and loads of timing pulled is not good.

The APS valves significance might be related to the load that causes the problem, but if the problem was there prior to it, then it might not be the cause.

the weird thing is I never seen knock counts that high, I thought they capped off at 36 counts. But I'm not used to reviewing evoscan, I use a much different logging software

Yorgis_MR

I am aware of that, and I cannot say why it was consumed, because there is no obvious leak that I could detect in that past, or at the present time.


I was not aware of the 36 count limit (cap) and I cannot explain why it went that high. I suppose it is possible that I am not using EvoScan's logging capabilities correctly. Hopefully people will continue to add comments so we can narrow this down a bit.

Fast_Freddie

iTrader: (50)

Log knock sum... I would say that you most likely have a boost leak, so do a boost leak test as well.

Yorgis_MR

Freddie, I did log KnockSum (it is an attachment on my first post in this thread). I have never done a boost leak test, so I am going to look on EvoM how to do that.

Yorgis_MR

The APS is functioning normally, no issues with it in reference to the way it works, driveability issues, pressure-holding capability etc. I honestly don't remember where I got it because it was a few years back, but I did take it apart before I installed it, cleaned & lubbed with Mobil1, placed a few turns of teflon around the adjustment screw and installed.

My issue is with the knocking noise and its apparent frequency increase, post-install.

I will try to track down in my files where I got the APS BOV and if I find out, I will let you know.

RJSP

Have you logged your engine reving in neutral (standing still)? If you get the same behaviour then could be something really loose in or around your engine or knock sensor not installed properly maybe. From reading your post I undersatnd that you can actually hear this knocking right?

Good luck,

Ricardo

Yorgis_MR

I did not log in neutral/still position Ricardo, and I will do it first thing tomorrow. I can certainly HEAR the sound (like i said, it is like a bunch of ball-bearings thrashing around under low-to-mid acceleration - but it is not a very loud noise). I cannot imagine what could be "loose" in the engine/compartment that would make the knock count so high. As far as the knock sensor and how it was installed, I have to say that the only major thing that I had replaced on the car was the clutch (full kit). Given that I dont know WHERE the knock sensor is, I will look it up on the shop manual. Maybe this has something to do with it...maybe not. I will log tomorrow either way.

Thanks for your input.

Yorgis_MR

Here is some info that I have discovered while reading many-many posts related to knock issues.

I think that there are several posibilities that are under the realm of "engine harmonics" or "rattling" because of something being loose. The knock sensor could have been installed but not tightened enough, the DP could be hitting something thus contributing to the problem, even my ingals damper could be exacerbating this problem. For me, the one thing that points to this direction (harmonics, loose things knocking around - as RJSP suggested) is the number of knocks that I have logged. Anyone can see that it does not seem like it is something you would see under normal conditions, especially since the engine is not showing any other symptoms.

So, tomorrow I am going to try with the least invasive stuff first:
1.Logging at neutral (standing still but variying the RPMs)
2.Disconnecting the ingals and logging to see if it made the engine too "stiff"
3.Checking for a loose knock sensor
4.Checking for a loose DP or other part

...I hope I can get to the bottom of this because it is becoming really frustrating.

Yorgis_MR

Ok, here is what I found by investigating some things that I read and some suggestions made by you all (mainly RJSP). I had said yesterday that I will do the following:

1. Logging at neutral (standing still but variying the RPMs)
2. Disconnecting the ingals and logging to see if it made the engine too "stiff"
3. Checking for a loose knock sensor
4. Checking for a loose DP or other part

I ended up doing 1 & 2 because my results were clear and at some level, conclusive. The results are as follows:

A. The SCALE that EvoScan logs knocksum, is shown at x10. By this, I mean that when you have a knocksum of 3, the scale on the graph shows 30. So, as you can see the map which I attached in the first post where the knocksum level shows up to 60, is actually 6. (IF ANYONE KNOWS DIFFERENTLY ABOUT HOW EvoScan WORKS, IF MY INTERPRETATION OF THE SCALE AND HOW IT WORKS, IS INCORRECT, THEN BY ALL MEANS CORRECT ME! I CERTAINLY DO NOT WISH TO GIVE WRONG INFO OR TO SHOT MYSELF IN THE FOOT WITH MY CAR).
B. I logged my knocksum level while standing still, but varying the RPMs, by holding steady at 2000rpm, 3000rpm & 4000rpm for about 20 seconds each. The max count that I got was 4, which only happened ONE time in the entire 5 minutes that I logged.
C. The next thing I did was I unbolted the "ingals stiffy" damper, and logged with a max of 1-2 in all cases. Also, the MAIN characteristic of this change -after driving around for about 30 minutes- was that the noise COMPLETELY disappeared.
D. To confirm all this, I RE-installed the damper but tightened the bolts down very well. The noise came BACK (but it was much more "metallic" now, like two metal pieces rattling together) but the knock count remained LOW (3).

So, what I think happened was exactly the thing that I had mentioned in my last post...engine harmonics was the culprit. The fact that the damper is there, means that any ability the engine has to "absorb" some of the noises, is taken away. As a result, all vibrations, noises etc, are transfered throughout the engine and thats where that EVIL noise was coming from.

Now, I am CLEARLY not an expert on harmonics and I NEVER thought that it would be so important that it would make such a huge difference in the way that the engine sounds/operates.

I will try something else tomorrow, but I think that I found what I was looking for...

You are all welcomed to comment, agree, disagree etc.

Thanks for everyone's input.

andrewzaragoza

iTrader: (6)

sounds like your ingals are damaged already. just remove that. i would suggest just getting a stiffer front motor mount. knock sum of 1-2 is not bad at all except if it keeps occurring in the same rpm and load. one way to see if its a phantom knock is to put in a couple of gal. of race gas. if the knock is still there then its a phantom knock.