When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Weeks/Months of talking about a new level of performance and posting pretty pics but sharing no results surely is for the Extreme Tuner thread?
A mate has an EFR7163 with .80 T4 divided hotside for his 2.3 which will be tuned on 98 (~US 93 Oct) in the next couple of months - tbh I've not been too comfortable with the turbo choice as there have been lots of hype about these turbos, people in this thread say they have tried them and like them but there has been no EVO results actually posted which makes it hard not to think that either they don't REALLY perform that well, or they haven't actually been tuned yet and there is no proof that they are really that good.
I'll update when this one is done regardless of the results - I'm completely impartial, if it works well I'll say it and if it's not the even more EFR than EFR then I'll say so as well.
R/T Ernie did some testing on his setup, and there have been other EFR builds not posted in this thread. Don't know if he ever got around to posting results on the 8374.
R/T Ernie did some testing on his setup, and there have been other EFR builds not posted in this thread. Don't know if he ever got around to posting results on the 8374.
Sorry maybe I should have been clearer, I was talking about the EFR7163 - it's being made out like it will spool like an EFR6758 and make power similar to an EFR7670, which if is true should make choosing a turbo for anywhere between 400-550whp purely a case of if you can afford to get a 7163 as it's just going to do it all better than anything else on the market.
Anyway the 7163 arrived, and fabrication for it will start shortly - I'll update when it's on and tuned.
EFR 7163 .80 Vband in/out vs GTX3576r on .63 TiAL housing. Both 100 oct.
Here is an interesting comparison. EFR7163 on a 2.5TFSI 5 cylinder in the TTRS on 100 octane and stock intake vs GTX3576r on a .63 A/R hotside from TiAL. They are different cars, but the setups are pretty much identical from the built engines, to same fueling, etc. We put the stock intake on the GTX car to make it apples to apples, though with a nice intake, it actually picked up 24whp above 5500. We put the same intake on the EFR car and picked up the same power, but we only had 1 intake/
Sure, dyno numbers right? We took both of these cars to the drag strip 1 hour off these tests and the best trap for the EFR car was 125.75 on the stock intake with the power as shown, and the best trap for the GTX3576r car was 125.80mph. Both full weight 3300lb cars without drivers in Vegas on a 4300 DA night. The APR GTX3576r car did have the +27 intake on for the drags that night, which explains the slightly but basically same power under the curve traps
Take home? Well, why would you put a GTX3576r in a .63 housing? I scratch my head at that too, but it wasn't our kit. Sure, a .82 would likely pick up 30-40whp up top, but it would likely drop another 300-400 rpm in spool. We are actually going to test this week on this concept, so I'll check back.
I posted a while back that a EFR 7163 could touch 600whp. That just isn't possible on my dyno. It is an honest 550whp/550wtq on kill mode( we do it on this same car 30psi tapered to 25psi) but shaft speeds hover right at 151k. Our dyno is pretty harsh, and I do think you could do 600whp on a DJ or maybe even a DP.
That said, it is going to touch 10s at ~130mph on a full weight Audi TTRS on 100, so that speaks a little bit to the potential of the little guy. And dynoqueen and trap speeds aside, the EFR is loads more fun as a DD. Very fast response, and off boost "max boost" is really night and day compared to the .63 GTX3576r setup.
The .63ar is a huge handicap on the 35R housing. It creates a ton of backpressure on that turbine and makes it surge prone. I dont think you can go apples to apples with components as the 35R requires a completely different set of rules for it to make it as efficient as possible. For instance, you cannot, with any real success, run it with a 2.5" inlet. Running a larger inducer'ed comp wheel with a restrictive inlet would handicap it far worse then doing the same to a smaller wheel. The .85ar on the smaller turbo and the choked up housing on the 35R would equalize things a bit but give the 35R some breathing room and it will pull away up top.
The .63ar is a huge handicap on the 35R housing. It creates a ton of backpressure on that turbine and makes it surge prone. I dont think you can go apples to apples with components as the 35R requires a completely different set of rules for it to make it as efficient as possible. For instance, you cannot, with any real success, run it with a 2.5" inlet. Running a larger inducer'ed comp wheel with a restrictive inlet would handicap it far worse then doing the same to a smaller wheel. The .85ar on the smaller turbo and the choked up housing on the 35R would equalize things a bit but give the 35R some breathing room and it will pull away up top.
I think he was more concerned with response at the same power level. Not how much power the turbo is capable of on the perfect setup as far as housings are concerned..
I think he was more concerned with response at the same power level. Not how much power the turbo is capable of on the perfect setup as far as housings are concerned..
So what you are saying is that its apples to apples to dumb down a compressor that flows 8lbs/min more and to choke down a turbine that flows more up top for the sake of a comparison? Response will suffer in this case across the powerband in the case of the 35R. Especially necking down the inlet.
When he said "intake" I was thinking intake manifold? Who puts a bigger turbo on a car without a free flowing turbo inlet pipe?
I think it does revile a couple things though:
1. A bigger turbo spools slower
2. Pick the wrong housings and a turbo suffers everywhere
3. Choke a turbo out and it fails to make power at higher revs.
I do find it interesting the EFR is down quite a bit on boost in the midrange though and still makes similar torque. But the question is, was it actually down on boost or was that all the turbo was really able to do without detonation?
Yes, in the VAG community intake=intake to turbo from filter. The Audi systems work well stock. 90% of the intakes on the market for the TTRS for instance lose power, especially as heat soak occurs.
A 4" inlet to the T04e cover at the turbo is just to suite the antisurge housing. It doesn't need 4 inches at 58mm levels. No where near. It is pretty apples to apples to compare them with the stock intake and wash the difference of the coupler on the inlet to the turbo.
One thing to consider is the boost level we were running. If you map both the gtx76 and the EFR71 compresor maps at the same PR, you can see they are within a couple lbs/min. If you want to run it at higher PR, the GTX compressor design can flow a bit more. It just isn't going to do it in a .63 housing.
We ran it down to 22psi because we were playing with a 2.5bar map sensor, so we were keeping it under the 2550mb limit closed loop. We are now at 3bar. Here is a graph of both with intakes and more boost iwth the EFR. Honestly, a little surprised that the EFR didn't pick up a ton more power and torque with the extra boost, but then I look at the compressor map with Matchbot, and I realize running the thing 22-23psi is pretty healthy in the map.
The .63ar is a huge handicap on the 35R housing. It creates a ton of backpressure on that turbine and makes it surge prone. I dont think you can go apples to apples with components as the 35R requires a completely different set of rules for it to make it as efficient as possible. For instance, you cannot, with any real success, run it with a 2.5" inlet. Running a larger inducer'ed comp wheel with a restrictive inlet would handicap it far worse then doing the same to a smaller wheel. The .85ar on the smaller turbo and the choked up housing on the 35R would equalize things a bit but give the 35R some breathing room and it will pull away up top.
Are you trying to tell me a 57mm EFR can get away with a 2.5" inlet but a 58mm GTX76 needs a 4"?
This isn't my GTX kit Arnold, this is APRs. I don't know why they chose the .63. Honestly, I would have rather seen the .82 60mm on the GTX3076r vs the GTX3582r on a .63. The only rational I can see is that the corrected turbine flow is nearly identical for both senarios on the hotside, but with the latter, you can one off put a .82 on there(or sell as a stage 3+) and get an extra 40whp with just a bit later powerband. Pretty reasonable IMO.
That said, the TTRS kit APR makes does not surge even a little bit. It wouldn't, as it is virtually the same corrected turbine flow as the .82 60mm 30r wheel.
As to your final statement, yes, it would appear by the data AND careful mapping of the turbine AND compressor map that the power potential and response would be similar. Therefor, I am not surprised at all that the power output and traps are nearly identical in power. It is like somebody thought of all of this before they made a competing EFR kit.
Are you trying to tell me a 57mm EFR can get away with a 2.5" inlet but a 58mm GTX76 needs a 4"?
Any inlet that incorporates a smooth transition from a low pressure source is superior. A 4" just allows a smooth transition of airflow, if machined in, that creates less vac if coupled with other high flow components. Its also less prone to collapse and on the event that it does, it will still have superior airflow. In the EFR turbo, you have no choice but to neck it down to a 2.5" while in the gtx, you have alot more low pressure area right in front of the compressor wheel
Originally Posted by URQaudiguy
This isn't my GTX kit Arnold, this is APRs. I don't know why they chose the .63. Honestly, I would have rather seen the .82 60mm on the GTX3076r vs the GTX3582r on a .63. The only rational I can see is that the corrected turbine flow is nearly identical for both senarios on the hotside, but with the latter, you can one off put a .82 on there(or sell as a stage 3+) and get an extra 40whp with just a bit later powerband. Pretty reasonable IMO.
I agree but I dont like the balance of either the cast 76r let alone the billet GTX76R coupled to the 30R turbine.
Originally Posted by URQaudiguy
That said, the TTRS kit APR makes does not surge even a little bit. It wouldn't, as it is virtually the same corrected turbine flow as the .82 60mm 30r wheel.
I dont think the gtx3576R would surge. I have a 59mm inducer billet wheel that I've designed with backcut major impellors and extended tip and I dont offer it with an antisurge housing at all but a custom profiled T04S Garrett cover mated to the 35R turbine. It is much more responsive then the GTX3576R and feels more aggressive. But under the right conditions with the 63ar, I think it can....
You can see the 5935r here on a Seat Leon 2.0L on E85. Disregard the broken crank at the end
As to your final statement, yes, it would appear by the data AND careful mapping of the turbine AND compressor map that the power potential and response would be similar. Therefor, I am not surprised at all that the power output and traps are nearly identical in power. It is like somebody thought of all of this before they made a competing EFR kit.
Haha, well, if I had a GTX3576R, I would be extremely disappointed in that power delivery and curve but I've learned to not expect too much from Garrett's medium frame GTX line except the 82...
Last edited by altrix99; Aug 25, 2015 at 07:12 PM.
This is a mixed flow turbine wheel so it is a little different than the off the shelf 8374 turbine wheel. It can actually flow as much as the 80 or more.
5880 elevation, DA was 8100+. The car was at 30psi or so as a result so it was far from full power.
Secrets Get a hold of me when you have a chance.
Based on what FR told me, it flows a hair less than the 9180 but isn't prone to overspeed issues that the 9180 and 8374 are. Do they run an aluminum CHRA?
Edit: Read a little further back, the worst case that will happen with a failed QSV is that you have the equivalent of half your AR, meaning you're going to just choke out your turbo, and it will be very noticeable. I'm working on doing a QSV EFR turbo on my S2000, and should have results in the next month. My goal is to make the EFR even more responsive than it already is and still make great top end.
One thing to consider is the boost level we were running. If you map both the gtx76 and the EFR71 compresor maps at the same PR, you can see they are within a couple lbs/min. If you want to run it at higher PR, the GTX compressor design can flow a bit more. It just isn't going to do it in a .63 housing.
We ran it down to 22psi because we were playing with a 2.5bar map sensor, so we were keeping it under the 2550mb limit closed loop. We are now at 3bar. Here is a graph of both with intakes and more boost iwth the EFR. Honestly, a little surprised that the EFR didn't pick up a ton more power and torque with the extra boost, but then I look at the compressor map with Matchbot, and I realize running the thing 22-23psi is pretty healthy in the map.
Interesting stuff and lines up with what I was thinking was going on. The 7163 is a smaller turbo so at lower boost where you aren't taking advantage of the higher compressor flow of the GTX3576R, yeah, it's a clear winner. Crank both up to all they have and the GTX is likely going to be the faster car. No real suprise though, the GTX3576R is a bigger turbo so it has more lag.
To me, a better comparison would be the GTX3071R? It would actually put the 7163 at the power advantage. It would be very swaying if desipite being the bigger turbo, it out spooled the GTX3071R and made more power. I'm pretty confident the EFR would make more power at a given boost level, I just think the GTX would be able to run more boost and make up for that inefficiency on kill mode. Octane limited street turbo though, 100% seems like the EFR would come out on top. E85...might be a different story.
Although, I could also see the GT30 turbine not working well in those larger displacement cars regardless so it wouldn't really apply to 2.0L 4 cylinders anyway.
Last edited by 03whitegsr; Aug 30, 2015 at 02:42 PM.
I've been stalking this thread for a long time. But after years of if-it-ain't-broke-don't-fix-it mentality my stock long block / stock turbo setup broke. So time to play with the big boys! Got myself a efr8374 0.92 a/r iwg with full race top t4 top-mount. This will be basically a max effort build on pump gas and race gas with a lot of off-the-shelf goodies....not necessarily bespoke stuff unless I delay it into late next year.
Many people have said these are big turbos. I'd like to amend that. These are HUGE turbos! This thing looks like a gt40r. And weighs as much as a twin disc clutch. Weight weenies will want to look away...
Last edited by deeman101; Aug 30, 2015 at 06:14 PM.
Aug 24, 2015, 05:42 PM
Get a hold of me when you have a chance.
