Building my first engine for a local customer
Jan 21, 2012, 04:41 AM
#1
Building my first engine for a local customer
UPDATE: 2017 = I had a PM in regards to this thread, so I wanted to put a final update on it.
We have built around 100 engines to date now, and are building more and more as time goes on. I have 8 at the shop right now to assemble for example.
Please see: https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ve...-building.html
And facebook @ facebook.com/pg/tscomptuned/photos/?ref=page_internal
================================================== ============================================
I'm building my first engine for a local customers car. At his request / choice he chose Jackson auto Machine (JAM) (they are local to him and me) to perform the machining on the block.
Anyone else have experience with this machine shop and their work? how accurate are they after you measured their work?
I have been doing pretty much research regarding everything so i think i wont have an issue, but i like to use my resources to their full ability so i figured id ask some outsiders for some extra advice and opinions.
The engine will be a 2.4L standard rod
We will be using arp mains and rod bolts
jam will line hone the block
use a steel torque plate when boring the cylinders .020 over (87mm)
and the rest of the usual machine work.
im not sure if its getting oringed or not.
The piston to wall clearance will be .0045 approx
The rods/mains about .0020
and not sure yet on the ring end gap.. I was thinking around .021 top .024 bottom. (based on what wiseco recommends so might change)
The pistons being used are Wiseco HD's. ( dont have the exact part # at this moment) . he went and bought all the parts from the machine shop even though i could of beat their prices
So the main reason for this post is basically to get some other info and reassurance im using the right tools etc from smarter folks then me and that there isnt something better out there that i could be using.
I will be plasti gauging everything
using a jegs rod bolt stretch gauge (not using a torque wrench period on the rod bolts unless someone says otherwise?)
jegs dial bore gauge (to measure cylinder bore)
ARP piston ring compressor? or is there something better to use? maybe: http://www.wonderbart.com/images/09/...ssor_03618.jpg
jegs piston ring filer? or is there something better along the same price?
Feeler gauges
machinist micrometer
and another dial gauge w/ magneti for measuring crank endplay once its bolted down.
anything anyone else would recommend? and how often is the machine shop wrong when doing work? i figure its best to just double check it all to be safe then sorry.
i want the best but not the most expensive tools to make the job as easy as possible.
aside from all that just need to order custom waterpump from english racing and oem hg modded.
Thanks
==================================================
Taken from post #73
==================================================
heres some updates..
All the machine work was performed by JAM in NJ. Everything looks good so far. JAM did a good job.
piston to wall gap was measured by us at roughly .0040 - The digital dial bore gauge crapped out on us (battery died) so we had to resort to using a dial gauge and my micrometer.
(the way you find the PTW clearance is you take the measurement of the actual piston then write it down. next you measure the cylinder bore with your dial bore gauge and find the highest point of measurement in the bore. sit it at this point and zero out your gauge. next you stick the dial bore gauge into a micrometer and adjust the micrometer until the dial bore gauge is zero'ed out. next you take the diameter of the piston and substract it from your cylinder bore findings and just like that you now have found your PTW.)
We filed and gapped the wiseco HD rings at 20 top and 24 bottom. Wiseco said they default recommend .019 and .023, but said .020 and .024 will be fine for a high hp engine.
The oil ring expander gap we left at .010 - wiseco said to leave this one alone.
I'll make a tutorial type deal and document the build in general. it may have lack of pictures for now but i will update this periodically as i proceed.
Here is a picture of squaring the ring into the cylinder.. basically you put the ring in the cylinder then you use the piston to push the ring down and get the piston lined up and even, you dont want to take it past the skirt area of the piston past the wristpin area.
Next once the ring is squared up in the cylinder you take a feeler gauge and check the ring end gap and see if your measurement of choice fits inbetween the gap, if not you must file the ring with your ring filer of choice.
(to be continued) - Next I will share how to install rings on the piston and what i have found that works best and important prepping that must be done in order to safely do so.
After this we will then share how to measure rod bearing and main bearing clearances without plastigage
---
misc pics of further progress.. unorganized for now. to busy to spend time making captions for each step.
be sure when installing rods to pistons that the bearing tangs face the exhaust side!
crankshaft endplay within spec.. never passed 0.005"
looks good right? well its not! JAM didnt notch the block so the rod cap hits the ****ing block..
Thankfully everything is measured and plastigauged, so i can re-assemble within 2hrs or so tops.
Also id like to add.. if you're building an engine and not tightening rods by stretch you're wasting your time.
every rod bolt took a different tq to stretch to a certain target.. torque wrench has to much friction therefore
its next to worthless for good accuracy. however all rod bolts were torqued inbetween 50-60 to meet proper stretch limit.
Rod bolts are the most critical bolts on your build. They need to be able to withstand thousands of psi during engine
operation and if they are not stretched properly they will not offer max clamping force!
also do yourself a favor and use Loctite heavy duty anti seize instead of ARP moly lube for measuring tq to get the
bolts preset. it gives much better tq measurement.
We used tq and stretch, went in graduations of 3-5ft/lbs when we got near the target stretch.
final measurements were as follows:
PTW: .0040"
Rod & Main: .0020"
Top Ring .020"
Bottom Ring: .024"
Rod bolt stretch: .0058" - .0060" (ARP 2000)
================================================== ===================
Block Notched and now turns like butter
================================================== ===================
================================================== ===================
Head assembly:
================================================== ===================
We have built around 100 engines to date now, and are building more and more as time goes on. I have 8 at the shop right now to assemble for example.
Please see: https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ve...-building.html
And facebook @ facebook.com/pg/tscomptuned/photos/?ref=page_internal
================================================== ============================================
I'm building my first engine for a local customers car. At his request / choice he chose Jackson auto Machine (JAM) (they are local to him and me) to perform the machining on the block.
Anyone else have experience with this machine shop and their work? how accurate are they after you measured their work?
I have been doing pretty much research regarding everything so i think i wont have an issue, but i like to use my resources to their full ability so i figured id ask some outsiders for some extra advice and opinions.
The engine will be a 2.4L standard rod
We will be using arp mains and rod bolts
jam will line hone the block
use a steel torque plate when boring the cylinders .020 over (87mm)
and the rest of the usual machine work.
im not sure if its getting oringed or not.
The piston to wall clearance will be .0045 approx
The rods/mains about .0020
and not sure yet on the ring end gap.. I was thinking around .021 top .024 bottom. (based on what wiseco recommends so might change)
The pistons being used are Wiseco HD's. ( dont have the exact part # at this moment) . he went and bought all the parts from the machine shop even though i could of beat their prices
So the main reason for this post is basically to get some other info and reassurance im using the right tools etc from smarter folks then me and that there isnt something better out there that i could be using.
I will be plasti gauging everything
using a jegs rod bolt stretch gauge (not using a torque wrench period on the rod bolts unless someone says otherwise?)
jegs dial bore gauge (to measure cylinder bore)
ARP piston ring compressor? or is there something better to use? maybe: http://www.wonderbart.com/images/09/...ssor_03618.jpg
jegs piston ring filer? or is there something better along the same price?
Feeler gauges
machinist micrometer
and another dial gauge w/ magneti for measuring crank endplay once its bolted down.
anything anyone else would recommend? and how often is the machine shop wrong when doing work? i figure its best to just double check it all to be safe then sorry.
i want the best but not the most expensive tools to make the job as easy as possible.
aside from all that just need to order custom waterpump from english racing and oem hg modded.
Thanks
==================================================
Taken from post #73
==================================================
heres some updates..
All the machine work was performed by JAM in NJ. Everything looks good so far. JAM did a good job.
piston to wall gap was measured by us at roughly .0040 - The digital dial bore gauge crapped out on us (battery died) so we had to resort to using a dial gauge and my micrometer.
(the way you find the PTW clearance is you take the measurement of the actual piston then write it down. next you measure the cylinder bore with your dial bore gauge and find the highest point of measurement in the bore. sit it at this point and zero out your gauge. next you stick the dial bore gauge into a micrometer and adjust the micrometer until the dial bore gauge is zero'ed out. next you take the diameter of the piston and substract it from your cylinder bore findings and just like that you now have found your PTW.)
We filed and gapped the wiseco HD rings at 20 top and 24 bottom. Wiseco said they default recommend .019 and .023, but said .020 and .024 will be fine for a high hp engine.
The oil ring expander gap we left at .010 - wiseco said to leave this one alone.
I'll make a tutorial type deal and document the build in general. it may have lack of pictures for now but i will update this periodically as i proceed.
Here is a picture of squaring the ring into the cylinder.. basically you put the ring in the cylinder then you use the piston to push the ring down and get the piston lined up and even, you dont want to take it past the skirt area of the piston past the wristpin area.
Next once the ring is squared up in the cylinder you take a feeler gauge and check the ring end gap and see if your measurement of choice fits inbetween the gap, if not you must file the ring with your ring filer of choice.
(to be continued) - Next I will share how to install rings on the piston and what i have found that works best and important prepping that must be done in order to safely do so.
After this we will then share how to measure rod bearing and main bearing clearances without plastigage
---
misc pics of further progress.. unorganized for now. to busy to spend time making captions for each step.
be sure when installing rods to pistons that the bearing tangs face the exhaust side!
crankshaft endplay within spec.. never passed 0.005"
looks good right? well its not! JAM didnt notch the block so the rod cap hits the ****ing block..
Thankfully everything is measured and plastigauged, so i can re-assemble within 2hrs or so tops.
Also id like to add.. if you're building an engine and not tightening rods by stretch you're wasting your time.
every rod bolt took a different tq to stretch to a certain target.. torque wrench has to much friction therefore
its next to worthless for good accuracy. however all rod bolts were torqued inbetween 50-60 to meet proper stretch limit.
Rod bolts are the most critical bolts on your build. They need to be able to withstand thousands of psi during engine
operation and if they are not stretched properly they will not offer max clamping force!
also do yourself a favor and use Loctite heavy duty anti seize instead of ARP moly lube for measuring tq to get the
bolts preset. it gives much better tq measurement.
We used tq and stretch, went in graduations of 3-5ft/lbs when we got near the target stretch.
final measurements were as follows:
PTW: .0040"
Rod & Main: .0020"
Top Ring .020"
Bottom Ring: .024"
Rod bolt stretch: .0058" - .0060" (ARP 2000)
================================================== ===================
Block Notched and now turns like butter
================================================== ===================
================================================== ===================
Head assembly:
================================================== ===================
Last edited by tscompusa; Jan 17, 2017 at 02:53 PM.
Jan 21, 2012, 02:28 PM
#3
Get an inside and outside mic and check the tolerances yourself. Don't ever take a machine shop's word for it. Use Plastigauge. The first engine I built took forever. The second took about half the time. Tolerances and torque specs are the
most important things.
most important things.
Jan 21, 2012, 02:43 PM
#4
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+1, at least until you build a trusting relationship. We're all human and we all make mistakes. Plastigauge is nice for some applications, but for these small motors making huge power, inside/outside micrometers are the way to go. I've personally heard of plastigage being as much as .0007 off.
Jan 21, 2012, 05:42 PM
#6
ok thanks guys.. post #2 please delete your spam from here.
-
I'm well aware how important tq spec is.. which is why i said ill be doing the rod bolts based on stretch with a gauge. ya i imagine its gonna take forever lol.. im a really slow but thorough worker.
The plastigauge isn't used for anything but a last minute check ordeal.. thats why i listed im getting micrometers also.
I just threw the main clearance out there that i found others using, the machine shop looks to have lots of experience with these engines and is supplying the bearing sets so they will have it where it should be.. im gonna call them monday to confirm a few things though.
so no one has any GOOD but not so pricey tools to recommend me? i mainly posted to get an idea if there were better tools available then im finding myself based on experience of usage.
-
I'm well aware how important tq spec is.. which is why i said ill be doing the rod bolts based on stretch with a gauge.
ya i imagine its gonna take forever lol.. im a really slow but thorough worker.The plastigauge isn't used for anything but a last minute check ordeal.. thats why i listed im getting micrometers also.
I just threw the main clearance out there that i found others using, the machine shop looks to have lots of experience with these engines and is supplying the bearing sets so they will have it where it should be.. im gonna call them monday to confirm a few things though.
so no one has any GOOD but not so pricey tools to recommend me? i mainly posted to get an idea if there were better tools available then im finding myself based on experience of usage.
Jan 21, 2012, 05:47 PM
#7
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Tom, post up a tool list and I (we) will help you.
ok thanks guys.. post #2 please delete your spam from here.
-
I'm well aware how important tq spec is.. which is why i said ill be doing the rod bolts based on stretch with a gauge. ya i imagine its gonna take forever lol.. im a really slow but thorough worker.
The plastigauge isn't used for anything but a last minute check ordeal.. thats why i listed im getting micrometers also.
I just threw the main clearance out there that i found others using, the machine shop looks to have lots of experience with these engines and is supplying the bearing sets so they will have it where it should be.. im gonna call them monday to confirm a few things though.
so no one has any GOOD but not so pricey tools to recommend me? i mainly posted to get an idea if there were better tools available then im finding myself based on experience of usage.
-
I'm well aware how important tq spec is.. which is why i said ill be doing the rod bolts based on stretch with a gauge.
ya i imagine its gonna take forever lol.. im a really slow but thorough worker.The plastigauge isn't used for anything but a last minute check ordeal.. thats why i listed im getting micrometers also.
I just threw the main clearance out there that i found others using, the machine shop looks to have lots of experience with these engines and is supplying the bearing sets so they will have it where it should be.. im gonna call them monday to confirm a few things though.
so no one has any GOOD but not so pricey tools to recommend me? i mainly posted to get an idea if there were better tools available then im finding myself based on experience of usage.
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Jan 21, 2012, 05:52 PM
#9
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Has your build seen 9k/800hp, or just 'set up' for it?
Jan 21, 2012, 05:54 PM
#10
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performan...ductId=1130494 (measuring rod bolt stretch)
http://www.findingking.com/p-36766-v....aspx?ref=base (for measuring bearings)
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS+Performan...81600/10002/-1 (measuring cylinder walls bore)
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performan...80593/10002/-1 ( plastigauge)
ARP Piston Ring Compressor 85.5mm .020 4g63 / 87mm .020 4g64
http://www.amazon.com/Fowler-72-224-.../dp/B001C7MS6Y (machinest micrometer)
feeler gauges
I will be making a build sheet also and checking off everything similar to how evans does it.. i like how organized he was during his youtube tutorial vids on his honda build. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpy_By5aIxM
http://www.findingking.com/p-36766-v....aspx?ref=base (for measuring bearings)
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS+Performan...81600/10002/-1 (measuring cylinder walls bore)
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performan...80593/10002/-1 ( plastigauge)
ARP Piston Ring Compressor 85.5mm .020 4g63 / 87mm .020 4g64
http://www.amazon.com/Fowler-72-224-.../dp/B001C7MS6Y (machinest micrometer)
feeler gauges
I will be making a build sheet also and checking off everything similar to how evans does it.. i like how organized he was during his youtube tutorial vids on his honda build. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpy_By5aIxM
Jan 21, 2012, 07:12 PM
#13
I went with .0025" on my rod and mains. I also used various calipers(dial and digital) and bore gauges to make sure everything was dead on. I work for a small pawn shop chain that my family owns so good tools came cheap. Lots of brake cleaner is a plus as well for cleaning the engine after machining and a nylon brush hone to clean up any peaks on the cylinder walls works great.
Jan 21, 2012, 07:19 PM
#14
yeah 99% chance the eagle will be fine, but im paranoid and feel more comfortable with the billet crank. btw, i picked the parts. the builder didnt pick the eagle crank, but they prepped it and went over it.
Last edited by n2oiroc; Jan 21, 2012 at 07:22 PM.
Jan 21, 2012, 07:31 PM
#15
Wiseco HD's PTW clearance is .0035". At .0045" you'll get piston slap on cold starts.
Main's I run .0025" and steel rods I run at .0028" for a 500-700 hp build. I always run the rods a little looser than the mains since the rod bearings take more of a beating. The oil feeds the mains first then goes to the rods. The oil wants to choose the path of least resistance so running the rods a little looser takes care of this.
You will want to line hone the mains with the ARP studs.
Torque plate helps with ring seal and is a very good idea. JMFab makes a good torque plate and it's billet aluminum which will simulate close to the same conditions when you torque the cast aluminum head down.
ARP ring compressors are great and are very consistent with installing rings without breaking them.
I've had good luck and have always use the ACL Tri-Metal bearings.
Forget about the plastigauge. I always have my machine shop ID check the bearings and I wait for them to do it when I pick up the motor. This keeps quality control in check in case there was some confusion on their part somewhere along the line. Don't mix up rod caps with other rods and make sure the tang on both halves of the bearings are on the same side. If your mains have a groove on one half put that half in the block not the girdle since your girdle sees the load.
That's all I can think of off the top of my head.
Here's a video of a 6-bolt crank installed at .0025" Spins ever so lightly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B16qB...ature=youtu.be
Main's I run .0025" and steel rods I run at .0028" for a 500-700 hp build. I always run the rods a little looser than the mains since the rod bearings take more of a beating. The oil feeds the mains first then goes to the rods. The oil wants to choose the path of least resistance so running the rods a little looser takes care of this.
You will want to line hone the mains with the ARP studs.
Torque plate helps with ring seal and is a very good idea. JMFab makes a good torque plate and it's billet aluminum which will simulate close to the same conditions when you torque the cast aluminum head down.
ARP ring compressors are great and are very consistent with installing rings without breaking them.
I've had good luck and have always use the ACL Tri-Metal bearings.
Forget about the plastigauge. I always have my machine shop ID check the bearings and I wait for them to do it when I pick up the motor. This keeps quality control in check in case there was some confusion on their part somewhere along the line. Don't mix up rod caps with other rods and make sure the tang on both halves of the bearings are on the same side. If your mains have a groove on one half put that half in the block not the girdle since your girdle sees the load.
That's all I can think of off the top of my head.
Here's a video of a 6-bolt crank installed at .0025" Spins ever so lightly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B16qB...ature=youtu.be