No rebuttal here BEK, FP, MAP know their JB designs hence the need for these high doses of ZDDP.

Stock turbo ehhhhhh not so much but we've all been over this plenty here so. I fully agree with the know your application an oil to best suit.

Send said oil for UOA's. I don't use standard M1 oils however I welcome someone to show me their stock engine/turbo that was ruined by using such. Not happening.

As for poor it and forget it. Not here 8+ years and more blood sweat and tears that I care to think about. My gripe is with the sheep that get hearded in with the you're not using our Signatue Special Ogre Blood and Leprechaun **** so you are doing your car a dis-service BS

Haha we cool BEK

 

The key thing to keep in mind when talking about oils is the application. Stock engines are just fine on stock oils, period. A bone stock engine will run just fine on an API licensed product. It is better to run a synthetic with a turbo, especially if the engine is driven hard. However, modified engines (especially highly modified engines) do need an oil with more specialized chemistry. It is back to application specific. Personally, I hate when people make "Magic Mystery Molecule" claims. It is bogus since every oil marketer buys their components from a handful of suppliers (only 4 companies actually make the additive packages). Unfortunately, marketers get in the way of real education, and as a result consumer confusion ensues. That is the only reason I posted to this forum. I received a request from a member, and I wanted to present real facts not marketing hype. What I dislike as much as the marketing junk is the failure to appreciate that as performance level increases, all the requirements increase. Details that did not matter before now are make or break issues. I've worked with NASCAR teams for over 20 years, and trust me, what they could get away with in 1996 no longer works in 2013. As the performance level climbs, you have to watch the details. Oil is one of those details. I will state this again - stock engines only need stock oil. Highly modified engines need something beyond the API minimum level of performance. The E85 issue is a perfect example. API SM is not required to be E85 compatible. API SN/GF-5 is, so some oils may not be compatible with E85 while other oils are compatible with E85. We have experience with Ethanol because NASCAR mandates E15 and the Australian V8 Supercars run E85, so we reformulated our oils to be compatible with Ethanol from E10 up to E85 as well as Methanol. Does this matter to a guy with stock engine running 91 Octane from the local gas station? No, this does not effect him, but it does matter to a guy running Methanol injection.

I don't mean to sound preachy, but I see how this can be confusing and frustrating. I hope this has shed some light on this debate. It all goes back to 2 key concepts - proper lubrication is the 4 "R's" - The Right Oil, In the Right Place, At the Right Time and in the Right Amount" (notice the actual oil is only 1 of the 4). And this leads to the 2nd concept: application specific. Don't look at the oils first. Look at the application first, and determine the needs of the application. After that, look for a brand you can trust to meet the needs of the application. Stock engines are easy - stock oil works fine. The highly modified engines require a little more thought. It is hard to fall off the bottom of the mountain, but it is pretty easy to fall off the top.

I appreciate you guys letting an oil nerd rant a little bit. This has been fun watching the conversation develop.

 

Stock Turbo and stock bearing clearances, the HR4 is perfect for use with E85. The extra corrosion protection is good, and it is stable for the turbo.

 

You dont sound "preachy" at all. We very fortunate to have an oil expert like you step in and shed some light about this seemingly sensitive subject. I know a lot of us to put wayyyy to much time and thought into this, and you just made the picture a little bit more clearer. I couldn't agree any more with what you said above.

BTW i like the "4 R's" of proper lubrication. You cant go wrong with that. Thanks again Driven.

 

haha we cool gsrboi And i understand your frustration and see where youre coming from. People are so quick to just on the Amsoil (i.e. Special Signature Series etcc..) bandwagon, with out putting any thought into it. As Driven explained, an individual with a stock engine, needs stock oil, like Mobil 1 But when increased performance becomes a part of the equation, we do need to look at "higher" performing oils'.

Also running higher Zinc and Phos content oils do apply to just more that MAP and FP turbos. They actually use better/stronger material for thrust plates and journal bearings (i.e. I know FP gets steel thrust plates from Melett or they manufacture their own) .. And the consumer is expected to increase the boost, so they recommend the higher ZDDP content to sustain the highest reliability. But when you increase the boost in a completely stock framed turbo (i.e. say over 30psi on e85 for example), the risk of failure is far greater because the thrust plate and journal bearings are a weaker material. So it would be in the best interest of the enthusiast, to run higher Zinc and Phos regardless. At least, thats my take on things.

 

Driven Racing oil. I have a question about "load carrying capacity and film strength", Whats your take on this? Could you shed some light on this topic? It seems Royal Purple uses the same type of test, to show the strengths of their oil using the "falex" test. I also know the falex test has nothing to do with the certificaion of motor oil and this type of test is outdated. The only useful thing Ive read about the falex test, was its use for gear lubricants.

I know youve seen this "at home" test an individual did years ago. I know this rules out the validity of this test... But how could all of our favorite oils place so low? Like the Joe Gibbs HR4 was 30th, not to mention a bunch of "high performance oils". He openly argues that high ZDDP content, does not guarantee high performance.

Heres the test/ link--> Motor Oil Wear Tests

 

I've read all the way from the beginning and may have totally missed where to find out what sets of detergents, zinc, etc need to be in which oils will work for which applications.
I need to read again to make sure I haven't missed anything, but I'm not a chemist and making sure I fully understand what is needed for my application doesn't seem as easy.

Where is the best place to get the info on each oil to determine how to chose said oil for that application? Not like the back of the bottle or advertising D-bags are going to let it be that easy.

I have an VIII that is modded a little over average - 415whp on 92oct pump. Running a bit of an aggressive cam (FP 4r) with FP HTAGreen @28-29psi. Pulled out on nice days to play at the drag or autox occasionally, cruising, but garage queen. I've run 10w-30 extended M1, to Valvoline Syn, to Brad Penn green @ 3-3500 OCI. Soon I plan on building a 2.4l for this instead of the stock 2.0l.

The daily driver is a 04 Forester with mild mods running 265whp on 92oct pump on a VF39@17psi with an aquamist sprayer running washer fluid for hot days (here in WA we get -20degree's smurf **** = about 35% methanol mix). Again this is a daily driver with fun in the petal. Run 10w-40 M1 and Castrol Syn in this one @ 3-4000 OCI. Car has high miles 117k -

So ideally I'm now trying to make sure I study what is being said here and again choosing the correct oil seems a little more difficult. At first I'm thinking that the cars might need to be using different oils (because the subie will sometimes have meth used, but since it's not 100% meth there may not be a reason to choose/run an oil compatible with meth??)

Easier said than done when trying to make sure that the oil I'm buying/using in my applications are the right one for the job....but I need to know what I should be looking for in that oil.
Aaaaaaaarrrh! Time to go back and read again to see what I may have overlooked. Or maybe I'm making this out to be more than it is and it's an easy pick?

Thanks to all for providing great info and debates. Thanks DrivenRacingOil for going the extra mile to explain as much as possible.

 

There we go, that's what I was looking for. Just someone to bring it back down to perspective. I feel that it reaches a little further then just stock turbo or stock motor but to each is there own, every salesman has his own gimic. It's just that all this analysis of your oil stuff doesn't pertain but to a small percentage of applications and if your daily driving your car on the street there's a good chance your not a candidate with the exception of some of the more eccentric builds or if your turbo upgrade comes with special guide lines like mentioned previously. If you don't have an over kill build, then you don't need over kill oil because your not gonna see over kill results from it other then a little bit of that placebo effect.

Sorry if I upset anyone and thanks for the comments Driven and Gsrboi80.

 

I don't think you upset anyone, at least not me.

 

Alright folks, now for the reveal. I learned a bit from this and had some fun, hope you all did too. Well here they are:


Brand X:


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Brand Y:



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It was pretty interesting some of the comments against brandx yet saying vr1 was good stuff. The VOA levels of zinc might seem low, but from my understanding is there is about a 10% factor when you are looking at this stuff. On that link posted above by BEKevo, the motor oil test link that is, they tested it being equal in zinc to the older vr1 grey bottle conventional, and its a popular oil on here. Also I beleive that this oil is on MAP and FP approved oil iirc.

I didn't know what other oil to throw in at first, then I noticed Autozone had a full synthetic oil on their shelf so I was really curious to fork the money out to see what a voa would show. Anyhow, some folks did vote for it so I guess it cant be all that bad huh. lol.

 

Wow. A few years back I ran penz platinum 5w30 during winter and sent out a sample. The results were on par with these two oils. I saw a difference in idle and startup in the cold mornings smother then the mobile 1 I switched out for it.

Now that I think about my sample had 3k miles on it while these have 0.

 

I have seen this test before. Unfortunately, no "lab" test can replace an engine test. I have personal experience doing real engine tests that contradict the results of this "test". One of the issues are that motor oils are formulated to protect engines, not pass flex tests. You can add lots of chlorinated paraffin to an oil and look really good on this "film strength" test, but it would be a terrible motor oil because it would actually cause corrosion. If these "film strength" tests were valid or offered any reasonable correlation to field performance in an engine, then ASTM and API would have them in the standard procedures. They don't because these type "tests" are mainly for marketing purposes. It is hard and takes a long time (ie the life of an engine) to truly evaluate the performance of an oil in an engine.

It is easier to do race engine oils because the life of the engine is shorter, so you get back results faster. The 4 major additive companies spend years developing the chemistry that goes in regular motor oils. In fact they are already working on oils for 2017. If they could short cut it with a bench top tester they would, but they can't. No substitute for real world development.

Plus they don't use the same materials in the tester as what is found in an engine, so the chances of the chemistry responding the same is not very good. Most cylinder bores are not made of steel...

 

No offense here. We are on the same page. Keep calm and carry on... Fortunately for my company, there is no shortage of overkill builds that need something extra.

 

Don't fret about it. Obviously what you have been doing is not failing you, so don't let this panic you. Both applications would benefit from a higher level of ZDDP (Phosphorus) than the API standard of 600-800ppm. Many oils can deliver 1,000 to 1,200 ppm Phos which is plenty good for a more aggressive cam and higher levels of boost. Just moving to higher "Zinc" narrows the field quite a bit. The next "application specific" concern is that the car is a garage queen and sees some "exotic" fuel. A higher detergent package is good for that, and some extra rust inhibitor is a bonus as well.

The last thing is the turbo, and we are back to a "synthetic" is a better choice for turbo life than a conventional oil.

So you are looking for a high "zinc" synthetic with extra corrosion protection. More than one company offers oils like this, so you can choose the brand you trust.

Like a few others have pointed out, a good oil will protect your engine, and you have plenty of good choices. Making a thought out choice helps get you closer to a "better" oil for the needs of your application. I hope this all helps. As the tech guy for our company, I don't want this to be an ad. I want to help people understand the differences in oil so they can be confident in what they use. At the end of the day you don't need to be an oil guru to choose an oil for your car, and most importantly, you should be enjoying your car instead of worry about what oil is in your car.

The fun part about oil is when you go racing and you are really trying to extract every last bit from the car and the engine. That is where all the science really comes into play.

 

Thanks again for taking the time to clear that up Driven, that was an excellent explanation So to be clear, the "flex" test are useless in determining the actual performance of a motor oil. Thats awesome they're already developing new oils' for the year 2017 I can only imagine what will be next