That was random.lol

 

Brad Penn lacks convenience, and their VOA's seem to be inconsistent. Heard their customer service is great....lol

 

the oils will be revealed once the poll closes. The results are interesting for sure, thats all I will say for now.

So as far as what I had talked about earlier, can anyone elaborate more on the types of zinc, slow burning and fast burning? If this is true then the quality and type is more critical than just content. I will try and find the page where I was reading about it.

 

Tommi

That's an interesting find on the slow burning versus fast burning zinc. I started googling and found an article about Joe Gibbs break in oil. http://rpmmachine.com/zinc-and-joe-gibbs.html

I guess the keys are now to find out if blackstone can test for that and what a good balance would be for the intended use of the car.

 

Heres some more information about the "burn rate" of Zinc. Ive never looked into this before TommiM mentioned it. Very interesting.. From what I have gathered, faster burning Zinc is designed or recommended for break in oils, with low quantities of detergents. Slower burning zinc provides better protection, at higher temperatures and are suitable for extended OCI's.


Again like posted before, the research was conducted by Joe Gibbs. Or so it seems be..

 

thanks for posting that, awesome info.

Now how do we distinguish which ones are in the oil? By its TBN possibly?

 

That is a good question. I would like to find that out as well. Maybe on the MSDS from the oil manufacturer ? I doubt the TBN would tell you, but I could be wrong.

If someone shot Joe Gibbs technical support an email, I'm sure they would be able to provide some information about it. Everything I've read concerning Zinc burn rates, was released by Joe Gibbs.

 

Here's the answer TommiM. I think.. Definitely sheds some light on the topic. I guess "burn" rate is the incorrect term, it's "activation temperature"..

From the BITOG forums.



Here's the link to the thread. Very informative about this subject (zinc).


How much Zinc in an ACEA C3 diesel engine oil??

 

So we have 3 different types of zinc, all which can be washed away by the detergents added in oil.

Zinc and detergents seem to counteract each other.

Zinc doesn't actually coat the metal, moly does.

moly doesn't get washed away like zinc does by detergents

zinc only gets activated by heat and pressure so that's why moly is there to provide protection until zinc gets activated.

This seems to be some of the stuff of what I'm summing up from reading those articles, correct me if Im wrong.

 

Yes thats what ive been gathering so far.. But apparently the other 2 forms of Zinc, are what oil manufacturers primarily use in their motor oils'.. Then theres this one "ZnDDP", which acts similarly to moly and plays a role as an "EP" additive, which is interesting. The characteristics of the other forms of Zinc, play a very different role in motor oil.

From apps.kemi.se website:

 

I emailed Driven Racing Oil yesterday and also included a link to this thread. I received a reply today from there tech guy and hes gonna take a look at this thread and address some of the questions. Should be cool to see what data he may enlighten us with.

 

Sweet. Thanks Tommi. It'll definitely be cool to have an experts opinion.

 

Hello everyone. Since a member of this forum asked me to comment on your discussion, I will share my response to him with you. I apologize for the length... This is not a sound bite subject...

I've read the posts and I will try to shed some light on this subject. First, a little background information is necessary. I am a member of the Society of Tribologists and Lubrication Engineers, as well as a Certified Lubrication Specialist and Used Oil Monitoring Analyst.

Second, a quart of motor oil is basically two things - 85% base oil and 15% additives. That breakdown on a percentage basis varies some, but you get the idea - base oil and additives. Every brand of motor oil in the world buys the additives they blend into their choice of base oil from one of 4 different companies - Lubrizol, Afton Chemical, Chevron Oronite, and Infineum. These are the companies that actually manufacture the molecules and do the real engineering. What you read on our website is what we take from Lubrizol and try to "translate" into ordinary language people can understand. The Joe Gibbs Racing NASCAR team has been working directly with Lubrizol to engineer custom additive packages for the "Driven" brand for over 12 years - thus Joe Gibbs Driven.

Now onto the questions... Regardless of terminology, Fast "Burn" or Activation Temperature, the concept is the same - ZDDP chemistry requires heat and load to initiate the chemical reaction that forms the phosphate glass film that provides the sacrificial anti-wear film.

With regards to the different types and names of Zinc (ZDDP, ZDP, ZDTP, etc...), they are just naming the variations of "Zinc" based anti-wear chemistry. I noticed one post about ZnDDP vs ZDDP. They are the same. Some old school chemists still use the "proper" chemical symbols when abbreviating a formula - Zn is the symbol for Zinc.

So what does all of this mean? Basically, the lower the activation temperature, the faster the "Zinc" reacts. While this is good for wear protection, it does come at a price - shorter drain intervals and shorter catalytic converter life in mineral based motor oils. When the "Zinc" reacts it releases Phosphorus compounds. Some of these form the Phosphate glass like film film that protects your engine, but some of these Phosphorus compounds get sucked out of your crankcase by the PCV system along with the oil vapor created by high temperatures on the pistons and cylinder walls. These oil vapors and Phosphorus compounds are pulled thru the PCV system into the intake and out the exhaust system where they react with the catalyst inside the catalytic converter. This is why the API licensed oils have both reduced Phosphorus content and volatility over the last few API service categories - increased protection for the emissions system equipment. Lowering volatility reduces the rate at which the motor oil produces oil vapor, which keeps the motor oil in the crankcase and off of the catalyst. Same with less reactive "slower burning Zinc" - it keeps more of the Phosphorus from the ZDDP in the crankcase and off the catalyst. These changes have enabled the OEM's to extend the life of catalysts from approximately 80,000 miles up to 120,000 miles.

The trade off for this is less Valvetrain protection with larger lift cams and higher valve spring rates. These more aggressive engine designs need the "faster acting" ZDDP. Our testing and experience with Lubrizol confirms this. The more aggressive the Valvetrain, the more aggressive you must be with the anti-wear balance in the formula.

A stock Valvetrain is fine to run on an API licensed oil, but a modified Valvetrain will require a different anti-wear balance. The exact use of the application - how you use the car and service the engine - will determine the appropriate additive balance for that application. For example, a modified engine that only races will use a high moly content and very low detergent package. This allows for maximum activation of the ZDDP and function of the Moly. This is important because the sustained high RPM and temperatures of racing conditions demand it. The price for this is shorter drain intervals.

On the flip side, a modified engine that is in a car that is rarely driven, uses pump gas, and mainly goes to cruise nights and such, needs more corrosion protection, so the additive balance will be different. The Ethanol content in many pump fuels is more corrosive than standard gasoline, so the additive package will require more corrosion inhibitors. This requires re-balancing the additive package to provide the anti-wear and corrosion protection this application requires. This will enable a "normal" drain interval.

As you can see, it is all a balancing act based on the demands of the specific application. There is no one-size fits all best oil. It is always a trade off based on the needs of the application - kind of like picking tires. The best tire for the track in dry weather is not the best for wet weather driving on the road.

Also, you can only tell a small amount about the oil from just looking at an oil analysis. The best way to select an oil is not to look at the oil first. Instead, look at your application, and then look for an oil that offers the correct properties for that application.

 

Wow. That was an explosion of information. Thank you Driven That answered everything.

 

I'm in! Subscribed - that's great info from DrivenRacingOil