Speaking on response and powerband, I think the Borg Warner EFRs can be better than some of the stock frame options. With the price of stock frame bb turbos surging, the difference in price is not so bad either. On top of this, the overspeed resistance with the smaller wheels is much better if you are worried about that kind of thing.

This is my car with a twin scroll IWG 7163 on pump gas, at a flat 24.5psi. We decided to soften the tq at lower RPM for max safety.

on Flickr

I would still like to drive a well setup FP Red/Green car before making statements, but on the road with this turbo my car is very, very responsive. The dyno only tells part of the story. Also, I like the way my car sounds over the stock frame stuff. A little more even but not raspy.


on Flickr

 

On the good 93 octane fuel you have, a twin scroll red would be pretty close that. Maybe 10-20 less HP, and 300 rpm later spool up. On E85, the red will walk away from the 7163 if you want the turbine wheel to stay attached.


My car hasn't been on a dyno for pump gas in forever. Last time it was, it did 415whp on ACN 91, 20psi at 4k, 24psi at 4200. Mivec would have helped about 200-300 rpm on that. Better fuel would've been an easy 30whp.


My car is pretty responsive, especially once in boost. Mivec would help a decent amount.

 

What metric do you use for "spooled." A certain torque value or your set boost? What is that value? Just curious because mine hit 25psi at about 3800rpm so I considered that spooled but everyone's definition may be different.

This is a quick overlay I did, of his chart compared to my results, a while ago. Obviously its an actual dyno vs VD, I started the pull ~1krpm later and its VIII vs IX so this is all anecdotal. If I ever get my car running again (been down since last July...) I'll try do it again starting at the same rpm and try to get an exact weight. Solid Blue lines that start at 2.5krpm are EFR and see my sig for the mods on other two plots.

 

id rather not convert my stock turbo. if MHI housings were still available we wouldnt even be having this conversation honestly. $3k plus for a stock frame turbo just bugs me.

 

My point is that the 7163 makes ~450whp on pump 93 and makes 300wtq in stock turbo territory. On the street it feels more responsive to me than the stock turbo did. Depending on your goals there are superior options to stock frame stuff.

 

my plan all along was to do a 7163...but i just cant justify the money at this point.

 

The Borg turbo is overbuilt and that's a good thing. The red and green use a td05 bearing center, which does seem to work but is tiny compared to the bw. The bw can be had with a twin scroll t3 housing and with the turbine being 713c will last through track abuse. I would expect the turbo to make slightly more power than a red (based on wheel specs), but spool the same or better. I am GUESSING this based on the turbine housing and design. I too would love to see this turbo bolted on an Evo with the twin scroll t3 housing. AGP makes a cast Evo X housing for this purpose, and sells this turbo with that kit. Either no one buys it or no one reports about it!

 

Absolutely I agree. I run an s369sx-e twin scroll. It spools surprising fast for such a large turbo. People are Comparing the EFR 7670 to a S257sx-e but they have very little in common just the Compressor itself is the same. The S257 is a journal bearing, inconnel turbine, totally different turbine wheel pitch than the EFR 7163/7670 turbos. Overspeeding this turbo is not a big of concern as the EFR turbos due to their lightweight turbines.
For the price, the SX-E turbos are best out there IMO.
Diesel guys overspeed them continuously without problems. It's going to last much longer than any of the FP mhi housing turbos just because of it's beefy nature.
If I were you I'd stop listening to all the "followers" and be a leader. Do something different from the pack. I did and my turbo spools 30 psi by 5500 rpm, not bad for a journal bearing turbo that will support 900+ horsepower.

 

I would bet with a .83 a/r and twinscroll manifold that turbo would spool very close to a red and make better top end numbers. The best thing is if you wanted more power you could switch to a 1.0 a/r for $150. On e85 and a bigger a/r you will put up FP Black power levels if you want further down the road.

 

It's safe to say the compressor is right in the middle of the FP black and red. But the hotside has many more options. Durability is absolutely better, for a price that can't be ignored. I say go for it and have fun being a pioneer. You've made a good choice IMO.

 

AGP offers a huge selection of a/r options for this turbo including a T3 .75a/r divided housing. I have $$$$ that say it would spool better than a FP red with this housing and a twin scroll manifold.

https://agpturbo.com/borg-warner-s25...1-12769095003/

 

How do the T3 twin scroll ports compare in size to the MHI ports? (on the manifold flange). I've never seen one. Only done T4 twin scroll stuff.

 

The T3 twin scroll port area is LESS than OEM MHI Evo X port size. I am unsure if this would cause a negative affect. T4 twin scroll port size is bigger than OEM MHI Evo X.

 

I wouldn't want to run that then. The MHI twinscroll ports create a bottle neck on the FP single scroll housings, even the big FP Zero struggles after 8k rpm. T4 twin scroll would be more ideal, and they make a small housing for that too, a .83

 

Your posts are all conjecture. If the T3 housing was the restriction with a .75 a/r then why would they offer it in a 1.25 a/r?

Trust me if you ran a 1.25 a/r twin scroll T3 housing on this turbo it would make way more power than any MHI housing turbo at the same boost levels. The zero doesn't count its a 750hp turbo with about the same size turbine as the s200sx-e. The exhaust wheel is bigger than the red and black which helps out downstream.

Besides if your that worried about it the T4 hotsides are even cheaper than the T3's for this turbo. Since he doesn't even have a manifold yet just get the T4 manifold. I wouldn't use a T4 for anything under 600~650.