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I'm building a twin scroll Black but switching out the turbine wheel frim 11 blade to a 9 blade so gases can flow out better. It won't get tuned for probably another month on a built 2.0 engine because engine needs to be broken in. I'm not giving up on MHI and jumping to a SS housing yet because spool is so much more. It may not seem like much on a dyno sheet but 1,000 rpm more is too long to wait (at least it is for me). I'll update here later if you can wait for the results. Lol
sure thing man. Would love to hear the results though. 👍
I will go ahead and do some research and get myself a Tubular manifold to start off. I was going to change my stock ported anyways. I was thinking about an ETS 1.5" runner. Any thoughts? I've seen the MAP one too and it looks good too. But I'll probably end up with the ETS, love the fabrication work on it.
With any build its important to define your goals at the beginning.
Do you want a fun street car, top end monster,power sliding insta spool ? Don't get caught up in too small of a turbo either. These engines just can't move the air below 3500 so its important to chose a turbo based on that and have a larger power band while keeping back pressure in check.
Don't get caught up in the I need to build it for 1200whp to have fun around town. Sure a 6870 will have less backpressure and make power well. BUT we only have a 4 cylinder . Typically the clutch and trans on these cars is the limiting factor. Driveability , shift quality etc.. The one street evo that makes 1000whp that holds together well also has a 20K sequential. Let me get back on topic.
Factory twin scroll housings are used by many OE manufactures to spool up quickly AND produce usable low end torque. They do create backpressure at the higher rpm's . There is a trade off for everything. We all know an SS housing will make more power up top but it sacrifices quick spool up AND low end torque. Here is a podcast where Robert from FP talks about pressure ratios and fun street cars.
TS comp made over 700whp with a fp black MHI on a dynojet. 6 years ago. I don't know how long it lived but if it was BB and wasn't kept on kill mode all the time it may have gone awhile.
Boost control with a stiffer base spring is a little harder to manage but not impossible. The stock ecu is pretty nice for tuning this . I would move to the proven fp manifold to retain the original sound of the car. The restriction in the system will be the housing / turbine wheel for the most part.
FWIW, I made over 600whp on a dynojet at 32psi on a BB Red MHI. E85, built engine,tuned well. The torque comes up almost as quick as the stock turbo but carries well. I consider the MHI red a solid 600whp turbocharger since it will make that out the top. It comes up violent enough with the MHI housing to power slide or shock the tires loose.
Here is a dynograph of the red from 32psi on the hit, to 37psi, tapering back to 32psi. I wouldn't consider the dyno high reading. My car has gone 100 in the 1/8th, 135 in the 1/4 on street tires with a tall 4.11 final drive around 600whp. FWIW adding the 4.11 at 350whp made me lose .7 second and 6-7 mph. in the 1/4.
I run this car around 30-32psi most of the time and I check for boost leaks quarterly.
The FP Black MHI would easily make over 600whp on ethanol with supporting mods/tuning. And if you ever build a 2.2 or 2.3 it will spool up even faster and make similar power. A large powerband is alot of fun on these cars. Having an 8000 or so rpm limit also keeps the oil pump and clutch/trans happy.
With any build its important to define your goals at the beginning.
Do you want a fun street car, top end monster,power sliding insta spool ? Don't get caught up in too small of a turbo either. These engines just can't move the air below 3500 so its important to chose a turbo based on that and have a larger power band while keeping back pressure in check.
Don't get caught up in the I need to build it for 1200whp to have fun around town. Sure a 6870 will have less backpressure and make power well. BUT we only have a 4 cylinder . Typically the clutch and trans on these cars is the limiting factor. Driveability , shift quality etc.. The one street evo that makes 1000whp that holds together well also has a 20K sequential. Let me get back on topic.
Factory twin scroll housings are used by many OE manufactures to spool up quickly AND produce usable low end torque. They do create backpressure at the higher rpm's . There is a trade off for everything. We all know an SS housing will make more power up top but it sacrifices quick spool up AND low end torque. Here is a podcast where Robert from FP talks about pressure ratios and fun street cars.
TS comp made over 700whp with a fp black MHI on a dynojet. 6 years ago. I don't know how long it lived but if it was BB and wasn't kept on kill mode all the time it may have gone awhile.
Boost control with a stiffer base spring is a little harder to manage but not impossible. The stock ecu is pretty nice for tuning this . I would move to the proven fp manifold to retain the original sound of the car. The restriction in the system will be the housing / turbine wheel for the most part.
FWIW, I made over 600whp on a dynojet at 32psi on a BB Red MHI. E85, built engine,tuned well. The torque comes up almost as quick as the stock turbo but carries well. I consider the MHI red a solid 600whp turbocharger since it will make that out the top. It comes up violent enough with the MHI housing to power slide or shock the tires loose.
Here is a dynograph of the red from 32psi on the hit, to 37psi, tapering back to 32psi. I wouldn't consider the dyno high reading. My car has gone 100 in the 1/8th, 135 in the 1/4 on street tires with a tall 4.11 final drive around 600whp. FWIW adding the 4.11 at 350whp made me lose .7 second and 6-7 mph. in the 1/4.
I run this car around 30-32psi most of the time and I check for boost leaks quarterly.
The FP Black MHI would easily make over 600whp on ethanol with supporting mods/tuning. And if you ever build a 2.2 or 2.3 it will spool up even faster and make similar power. A large powerband is alot of fun on these cars. Having an 8000 or so rpm limit also keeps the oil pump and clutch/trans happy.
Good point though.
and dang those FP Red are amazing too. They spoil up so quack and at the same time you maintain the power band pretty nicely. Super linear too. I was kinda looking in to something like that, a fun street car but with a linear power band (top end power I mean.) I don't really kind all the lag but it's true. 4G63 don't move much below 4000 rpms. So for fun street car it has to spool fast and at least maintain a linear power band.
I was also thinking about that, since its a street car, (not always a DD, it's more of a weekend fun car.) I should keep the MHI for a little quicker spool, 600+ hp is doable with it. And plus it spools a little quicker than an SS. I think I'll maybe go that route.
for the manifold I don't really mind keeping like a close to stock sound, I just want something that like works pretty well and flows great, like if I do ever change to an SS or something else i won't have to change it out again. But true those fp manifolds are proven to work nicely though, I just wanted a little bit of an upgrade from that.
for the manifold I don't really mind keeping like a close to stock sound, I just want something that like works pretty well and flows great, like if I do ever change to an SS or something else i won't have to change it out again. But true those fp manifolds are proven to work nicely though, I just wanted a little bit of an upgrade from that.
Tubular manifolds are a waste on a stock frame turbo. Go with FP cast manifold and save a bunch of cash and have something that performs just was well. The restriction with a stock frame turbo is the turbine housing, not the manifold.
Tubular manifolds are a waste on a stock frame turbo. Go with FP cast manifold and save a bunch of cash and have something that performs just was well. The restriction with a stock frame turbo is the turbine housing, not the manifold.
It's like CF hoods, it doesn't actually do much but people want em for the bling factor. I've had the desire a couple times myself but don't want to deal with potential cracks costing me a track day and downtime.
Tubular manifolds are a waste on a stock frame turbo.
The results for the manifold I just posted show gains from 5k rpm to 8k rpm and 25whp & 15wtq peak gains over a ported FP manifold on a 540hp stock frame car. Not the best bang for buck but certainly not a waste.
The results for the manifold I just posted show gains from 5k rpm to 8k rpm and 25whp & 15wtq peak gains over a ported FP manifold on a 540hp stock frame car. Not the best bang for buck but certainly not a waste.
There are manifolds out there with similar pipe routes and smoother transitions than that piece that didn't gain power. They're the only people to have results like that and they're the ones selling it. So yea...
There are manifolds out there with similar pipe routes and smoother transitions than that piece that didn't gain power. They're the only people to have results like that and they're the ones selling it. So yea...
I seriously doubt there are others with smoother head flange to runner and runner to collector transitions, I'm pretty sure I've seen them all. I'm guessing you didn't read their article laying out the full details of their testing? Its pretty thorough...doesn't guarantee a 3rd party would get the same results but I wouldn't just assume they are lying/fudging numbers though.
I seriously doubt there are others with smoother head flange to runner and runner to collector transitions, I'm pretty sure I've seen them all. I'm guessing you didn't read their article laying out the full details of their testing? Its pretty thorough...doesn't guarantee a 3rd party would get the same results but I wouldn't just assume they are lying/fudging numbers though.
Go look at Archer manis. Way smoother transitions and piping. Furthermore, smooth transitions won't make 5-7% more power without tune adjustments. It hasn't worked in the past multiple times.
Go look at Archer manis. Way smoother transitions and piping. Furthermore, smooth transitions won't make 5-7% more power without tune adjustments. It hasn't worked in the past multiple times.
Archers is pretty no doubt but its not a true equal length. Entry angle into the collector is not as good as MF or even the STM piece. Runners are too big for anything under 600whp ++ imo and It also uses traditional port transitions on the head flange which are far less than ideal vs the proper oval port transition to small runners that MF uses. This is a great comparison of traditional ports that everybody else uses vs oval port: http://morrisonfabrications.com/tech...sition-flange/
Turbo cars are extremely tolerant to unequal length runners, this isn't a naturally aspirated engine where turbulence in the exhaust ruins exhaust scavenging and hurts power. I respect their dedication to being thorough about their products but the fact is really any manifold will outflow an MHI housing. The only differences are really going to be in runner diameter which would affect spool. The MHI stuff also doesn't really mind much in regards to collector angle because the volute doesn't start in the housing until you're about 3-4" down past the flange or so, a fair bit steeper than most turbine housings.
I'm not spouting garbage out of nothing either, I have a degree in automotive engineering and have spent more time using flow benches and consulting flow bench experts than anyone here short of some guys who use them for a living.
So guys, I got another small question. If I do stick with the MHI housing, you know I want an o2 dump and all that, I saw the JM Fab o2 hood dump, are those like a straight like bolt up to the housing and bolt up the Dow pipe and you're done? Or does it need a little more working around with the flange and positioning? I know it all depends on what type of Dow pipe and the measurements as in 2.5" or 3" and stuff. But I would just really love to know.
I was also looking at one by a company named UPP, ever heard of that one? Looks pretty well made too, and the hood dump doesn't go way to the side like the JM Fab one.
Feb 25, 2019, 03:33 PM
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