The DSM vendors may have been around the 4G for a while, but so far I'm not too impressed with their approach. Buschur is marketing 2.5 and 3" exhausts already and hasn't even tested them on the car yet! Vivid's pushing a titanium exhaust for the car that is for an Evo 7-- it doesn't protrude beyond the bumper or even have the 2nd O2 bung! The commonly-accepted-in-the-DSM-world practice of mindlessly throwing hardware at the car without any regard for what it does to the car's calibration is totally backwards. Although he's a 4G rookie, at least Shiv/Vishnu is taking the time to feel out the car, experiment, and analyze the tuning. If I didn't know better I'd say that the other guys are the rookies and that Shiv is the seasoned 4G veteran...

 

You'd only say that because you don't have a clue. Vivid is not a DSM vendor that I've ever heard of before. Buschur will test the hell out of the exhaust setup to get the very best performing exhaust he can. So now you ask why does he just say 2.5" and 3"? It's because it's common knowledge. If you don't understand that a bigger, more free-flowing exhaust is good for a turbo car, then you are a serious rookie in this game.

Contrary to what you believe, mindlessly throwing parts at a car is ABSOLUTELY not an accepted practice in the DSM world. Why do you think DSMs are notorious for going so fast, for so cheap? It's because DSMers do the exact opposite of what you suggest. We don't just throw on an ECU "chip" that gains us 5whp for $500 plus the price of a dyno tuning session when the stock ECU with an S-AFC is good for 11s. DSMers let track times speak for themselves. It's no wonder that DSMs as a whole have such an exceedingly impressive times list: www.dsmtimes.org.

Man, some people seriously don't get it.

*EDIT* I seriously can't believe anyone would call Buschur a rookie at the 4G63. Who else has turned 7s at over 170 mph with one of these motors? I know Shiv hasn't, and I'm quite positive that he never will.

*EDIT AGAIN* Buschur also built a car with completely off-the-shelf parts that anybody and their mother could order from him that turned a 9.8 second 1/4 at over 140 mph! Shiv can't do that.

 

I honestly cannot believe the level of stubborness that I am witnessing here. The most common dyno in the US is apparently the Dynojet, which has been shown time and time again reads higher than a Dyno Dynamics one. Since people have used the Dynojet in the past, they came up with the 20%-24% difference between the readings from the dyno and what the manufacturer claims are at the flywheel. Since the Dynojet numbers are greater than the Dyno Dynamics numbers, why do people assume that the 20%-24% drivetrain loss would apply to the Dyno Dynamics numbers? Obviously a higher percentage loss would be needed to account for the difference.

So does this mean that the Dyno Dynamics numbers are wrong? NO, it just means that a different approach is taken and the numbers show up lower The fact that the Dynojet's numbers are closer to the flywheel numbers doesn't make it more "right" than the Dyno Dynamics. Just because the Dynojet is the most common dyno doesn't make it "right". If you do searches on Google, you can see that everyone who has dynoed with both say there is about a 15% difference between the 2 numbers. So would I be right in saying that Dynojets are "wrong" because they inflate their numbers to make people think they are making more HP? No, because the dynos are different. Having one being 15% more than another does not make it more "right" or more "wrong", why is it so hard for people to accept that?

Even though the Dyno Dynamics dyno reads a lower absolute number, I would much rather have a dyno that better simulates actual driving on the road, i.e. the front and rear wheels do NOT rotate at different speeds like on a Dynojet (if you actually drive on roads that cause the front and rear wheels to spin at differing speeds, please let me know where). If you are a person that is resistant to change and believe that the way you do things is the only and correct way to do it, then go on and continue to call everything else wrong.

 

on al the bickering here.

on all the knowledgeable information gained here.

 

RedBean, well said.

I think we have once again, for like the 2nd or 3rd thread now, lost the main point of the thread. Which had absolutely nothing to do with different dyno #'s or whether Shiv is the authority on DSM tuning (which he hasn't claimed to be either), or any other topics that people have brought up.

The point of this thread was solely to try to figure out why the SCC car was dynoing 20hp higher, with a generally broader power curve and not just peak hp being 20hp higher. Is this so hard to understand? Yet somehow we have come back to the same fighting that caused the first thread to die. Jeez people, nobody is asking you to buy Vishnu tuning stuff, what does it matter if somebody else does or doesn't? It's their money, let them do what they want. I don't care which tuner sells what or researches what. When I decide to do aftermarket stuff I'll do my research and then decide. If Vishnu doesn't make quality products for the Evo then it will become obvious, but until then.. who cares? You guys are beating on a dead rat, just let it die! In other words, just let the thread be!

You people need to chill out and have a couple

 

All this 1/4 mile and power talk................

I just got back from a romp on a twisty & bumpy "B" road and allmost hit 120mph on one stretch. I'm still smiling

I only wish the Evo had 14" Brakes..........

 

Naw....

Show me a chassis dyno that measures engine power, and I'll give you a beer with a half-eaten baloney sammich.

We can estimate engine output with a chassis dyno, and that is all.

To accurately measure engine output, you need an engine dyno, which means you physically remove the engine from the car and strap it onto one of these things. I've never seen one, but that's the general idea.

It also doesn't matter how a particular dyno is calibrated, as long as it reads consistently from one run to another for the sole purpose of being a tuning tool.

Data from a Dyno Dynamics setup is no more or less useful or meaningful than that from a Dynojet or any other type of dyno.

If people don't understand these things, then they're not seeing the big picture. Another example, Shiv's Evo 8 could very well read 220 whp on a similar dyno in Europe. However, based on his calibrations and other variables, it reads lower. But... all of his readings seem to be consistent from what I have seen so far. So two different cars can produce the exact same power, but produce totally different numbers on different dynos.

 

Just a comment on the above ECU argument:

ECU tuning is very good, if you have the know-how and the software. A properly programmed ECU can control timing, fuel, and boost without the need for separate controllers. At least that is how the VW/Audi turbo engines are. All tuning is done via the ECU. You can always go standalone and use all the gadgets, too.

Not to refute your comments, but I just wanted to add some additional info. It appears as if tuners are not yet sure how programs their ECU's, but the factory cars don't come with separate electronic boost controllers, so everything would have to be controlled by the ECU.

My $0.02.

 

I just noticed that too gtr, i put 160/227 on my calculator and got 0.70484581497797356828193832599119 and then i put 191/271 in and got 0.7047970479704797047970479704797 those numbers are pretty close don't you think? i'd say if you get 191 with 94 octane you should be getting 271 at the crank or really close to it...

 

Sorry Shiv,

I hope you will still contribute to this board. But on the otherhand why bother. Sad day for the board.

Erik

 

just thought i would throw this dyno result in the mix the dodge srt4 dynoed at some where aronud 229hp and 263ft-lb to the wheels so i am realy interested in seeing an evo dyno in person

 

Is that a production Neon you're talking about or a "ringer" for the press, because I do remember a pre production ringer being handed around.

 

Well... thats on dynojet (though still very high).... What do you
think I was asking shiv to give us some numbers for the
FWD/RWD so we could compare...

 

Erik

I think shiv gave up because NO ONE GOT HIS JOKE!!!

Originally posted by: shiv
lol

 

Ringer? I think not. As much as I hate the SRT, I firmly believe the SRT was not a ringer. SCC was promised this a few times. Anywho, we wont know until an actual one is dynoed, so forgive me if I sound harsh.