SCC's EVO dyno'd
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The initial point of this thread may well have been that the Press Evo 8 was a "ringer", but that isnt what interests the people who bought one or will buy one. What matters to Mitsubishi's customers is whether or not the Evo they buy from Mitsubishi dealers does indeed make the claimed 271 bhp.
Evos are intended to be run on 93 octane gas. I will therefore disregard any dyno runs on lower octane fuel since they do not comply with the manufacturer's requirements.
Now, if an Evo on 93 octane gas makes 190 bhp to the wheels, then:
- either the Evo has 30% transmission loss (very unlikely)
- or it doesnt make 271 bhp at the crank
- or what the dyno measured is incorrect (unlikely since it is a Dyno Dynamics, unless it has been incorrectly set up)
No matter what the answer to this is, one thing is for sure: I have NEVER, anywhere in Europe, seen an Evo put out below 200 bhp to the wheels.
Evos are intended to be run on 93 octane gas. I will therefore disregard any dyno runs on lower octane fuel since they do not comply with the manufacturer's requirements.
Now, if an Evo on 93 octane gas makes 190 bhp to the wheels, then:
- either the Evo has 30% transmission loss (very unlikely)
- or it doesnt make 271 bhp at the crank
- or what the dyno measured is incorrect (unlikely since it is a Dyno Dynamics, unless it has been incorrectly set up)
No matter what the answer to this is, one thing is for sure: I have NEVER, anywhere in Europe, seen an Evo put out below 200 bhp to the wheels.
Originally posted by enthusiast
Getting back to the subject........
Shiv,
Maybe the question we should ask is how did MMC arrive at 271 at the crank? Did they use a dyno, if so which one was it?
Getting back to the subject........
Shiv,
Maybe the question we should ask is how did MMC arrive at 271 at the crank? Did they use a dyno, if so which one was it?
I guess the trick is to use 93 or higher octane. The real question now is why the magazine cars are ringer. Why not just let SCC test your car Shiv and then report to us
Originally posted by Claudius
No matter what the answer to this is, one thing is for sure: I have NEVER, anywhere in Europe, seen an Evo put out below 200 bhp to the wheels.
No matter what the answer to this is, one thing is for sure: I have NEVER, anywhere in Europe, seen an Evo put out below 200 bhp to the wheels.
Are the Euro-spec Evo's identical to the JDM Evo's? If they are, then assuming that the 276bhp is a slightly underrated number, then all JDM and Euro-spec Evo's are making close to 300bhp or more.
At
300bhp - 25% drivetrain loss = 225,
300bhp - 30% drivetrain loss = 210.
So whether JDM drivetrain losses are within that range, hp still seems to be above 200bhp as you quoted. However, I must agree that the 30% drivetrain loss does sound highly unlikely.
For USDM,
271bhp - 25% drivetrain loss = 203
271bhp - 30% drivetrain loss = 190.
Even at 25% drivetrain loss we are seeing only a 13bhp increase, not quite close enough to the SCC car. Since the J-specs are approximately 30bhp more to begin with, then these numbers look just about right (assuming USDM hp #'s are not underrated, which seems to be the case).
Remember we're not comparing USDM vs JDM Evo's, we are comparing USDM production to USDM preproduction "ringer" cars. My guess is that it's possible that we are seeing a 25% drivetrain loss, but the preproduction cars may possibly have less restrictive airways than the production cars. In particular, I am thinking of the emissions reducing parts, which may be more restrictive than at first glance. I have actually yet to see an Evo8 though, so I can't back up the validity of this statement. I'd be interested in seeing if SCC pursues this, as I'd like to know where this general power increase comes from (remember this is the entire power curve, and not just peak hp).
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Everything I've read so far from shiv indicates to me the USDM Evo is putting out the 271 claimed hp on proper gas. No more, no less. I'm not going to review the evidence that points to this as it has already been done, even by shiv himself. Also from Evo to Evo they seem to be very consistent with the exception of the SCC Evo which may be a ringer. This is what I'm waiting to see the answer on.
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Originally posted by evo_dan
Everything I've read so far from shiv indicates to me the USDM Evo is putting out the 271 claimed hp on proper gas.
Everything I've read so far from shiv indicates to me the USDM Evo is putting out the 271 claimed hp on proper gas.
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From: Kelowna, B.C., Canada
Originally posted by Claudius
That's incorrect, since "shiv" says the Evos make 190 bhp to the wheels on the 93 octane gas which it is supposed to be run on (which will only be 271 at the crank if transmission loss is 30%, which it isnt).
That's incorrect, since "shiv" says the Evos make 190 bhp to the wheels on the 93 octane gas which it is supposed to be run on (which will only be 271 at the crank if transmission loss is 30%, which it isnt).
Originally posted by evo_dan
He said there is a 15% correction factor which he doesn't like to use, which when used, brings the Evo's whp up over 200 hp bring it to the factories 271 hp, give or take a few hp. I'll have to search for that post. I may have read it wrong.
He said there is a 15% correction factor which he doesn't like to use, which when used, brings the Evo's whp up over 200 hp bring it to the factories 271 hp, give or take a few hp. I'll have to search for that post. I may have read it wrong.
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Originally posted by evo_dan
He said there is a 15% correction factor which he doesn't like to use, which when used, brings the Evo's whp up over 200 hp bring it to the factories 271 hp, give or take a few hp.
He said there is a 15% correction factor which he doesn't like to use, which when used, brings the Evo's whp up over 200 hp bring it to the factories 271 hp, give or take a few hp.
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From what I remember him saying was, yes, but he didn't like to use it. I'm still looking for that post. Does anyone else remember this?
EDIT: I give up, I can't find that post any more.
EDIT: I give up, I can't find that post any more.
Last edited by evo_dan; Mar 17, 2003 at 07:32 PM.
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Originally posted by Claudius
That's incorrect, since "shiv" says the Evos make 190 bhp to the wheels on the 93 octane gas which it is supposed to be run on (which will only be 271 at the crank if transmission loss is 30%, which it isnt).
That's incorrect, since "shiv" says the Evos make 190 bhp to the wheels on the 93 octane gas which it is supposed to be run on (which will only be 271 at the crank if transmission loss is 30%, which it isnt).
why can't people grasp the concept of a dyno? why don't people understand that not all dyno's are to be read the same and comparisons cannot be made from dyno to dyno?
why did you put shiv in quotes? that's his name
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Originally posted by Claudius
Now, if an Evo on 93 octane gas makes 190 bhp to the wheels, then:
- either the Evo has 30% transmission loss (very unlikely)
- or it doesnt make 271 bhp at the crank
- or what the dyno measured is incorrect (unlikely since it is a Dyno Dynamics, unless it has been incorrectly set up)
Now, if an Evo on 93 octane gas makes 190 bhp to the wheels, then:
- either the Evo has 30% transmission loss (very unlikely)
- or it doesnt make 271 bhp at the crank
- or what the dyno measured is incorrect (unlikely since it is a Dyno Dynamics, unless it has been incorrectly set up)
Hell, even 2WD cars have similar drivetrain losses when dynoed on a dyno dynamics dyno. It is unrealistic to compare any dyno type to any other. And that includes comparing an engine dyno (Mitsubishi's) to a chassis dyno (Vishnu's).
But it seems that is what everyone is doing. Personally, I trust Mitsu's dyno.
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Originally posted by -LD
dude, you just don't get it still...shiv's dyno is just fine
dude, you just don't get it still...shiv's dyno is just fine
Originally posted by -LD
they indicate HP numbers are more or less on track
they indicate HP numbers are more or less on track
Originally posted by -LD
it's does not indicate any drivetrain loss, it indicates an arbitrary number that the dyno gives for tuning purposes
it's does not indicate any drivetrain loss, it indicates an arbitrary number that the dyno gives for tuning purposes
Originally posted by -LD
why can't people grasp the concept of a dyno? why don't people understand that not all dyno's are to be read the same and comparisons cannot be made from dyno to dyno?
why can't people grasp the concept of a dyno? why don't people understand that not all dyno's are to be read the same and comparisons cannot be made from dyno to dyno?
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Originally posted by Claudius
Look, I understand that there are variations from dyno to dyno, and that what matters is that the dyno is consistent or shows differences in engine output after mods; however, it also needs to be able to tell how much power the engine makes.
Look, I understand that there are variations from dyno to dyno, and that what matters is that the dyno is consistent or shows differences in engine output after mods; however, it also needs to be able to tell how much power the engine makes.