An Inconvenient Truth… About JDM - aka "The Death of Innovation"
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I'm a proud American, proud of American products. I believe its in the American way, that if there's a design out there that is good, you should either find a way to uniquely enhance it and make it on your own, or be a man and step into the JDM ring and challenge them at their own game. We're bold, we're proud, and at one time, there were no SpoComs or JDM hi-perf parts. At one time, we dominated the go fast market. Victor Edelbrock would be flamin pissed if some Chinese company came in and started buying his manifolds just so some knock off discount brand could come and buy one of his quality products so they could make cheap *** cast replica that blew the brackets off at the first shot of spray. American's should be ashamed at companies that aren't as original as their own heritage. The American way has always been different and better than other countries.
Its funny how we all b!^@#ed when other countries came in and started replicating our manufacturing processes and refining our production and doing it cheaper. And the American response to a JDM challenge towards quality products has been to turn around and betray all their stated morals in american pride in the american way and do the same things their competition did by simply letting someone else do the heavy work in development and picking up at their final design. That is not what I call rising above and not stooping to the competitions level, its purely unamerican. Third world countries do that ****. To think that there are American companies that operate as ethicless, careless, replicators sickens me. It hurts my pride of being a part of the American tuning scene. I guess it is true, american innovation is dying if not already dead. The worst part is, that our lack of pride in ourselves and our work has completely died, and now we're taking down an entire industry just because of it.
To every American knock off buyer, wise up. If you keep supporting knock offs, there will eventually be nothing left for you to even think is cool enough to be knocked off. You'll be left with what sadly has been America's best attempt at being innovators (the american made crap that people don't buy because its simply ugly crap). Instead, if you still want to support these knock off companies, and you think that doing so will continue to support our industry, then demand that Seibon be a real competitor. Demand JDM quality from American companies. See what they say. If they are half as much of an enthusiast as you are or claim to be, then they'll respond with a competitive initiative of some sort. But this price war has to end. It really is not fair to American consumers. I know I'm personally tired that for the past 8 years, I've been handed piles of bulls#!t with a petunia sticking out of it and being told its the same bushel of roses I've always gotten.
Its funny how we all b!^@#ed when other countries came in and started replicating our manufacturing processes and refining our production and doing it cheaper. And the American response to a JDM challenge towards quality products has been to turn around and betray all their stated morals in american pride in the american way and do the same things their competition did by simply letting someone else do the heavy work in development and picking up at their final design. That is not what I call rising above and not stooping to the competitions level, its purely unamerican. Third world countries do that ****. To think that there are American companies that operate as ethicless, careless, replicators sickens me. It hurts my pride of being a part of the American tuning scene. I guess it is true, american innovation is dying if not already dead. The worst part is, that our lack of pride in ourselves and our work has completely died, and now we're taking down an entire industry just because of it.
To every American knock off buyer, wise up. If you keep supporting knock offs, there will eventually be nothing left for you to even think is cool enough to be knocked off. You'll be left with what sadly has been America's best attempt at being innovators (the american made crap that people don't buy because its simply ugly crap). Instead, if you still want to support these knock off companies, and you think that doing so will continue to support our industry, then demand that Seibon be a real competitor. Demand JDM quality from American companies. See what they say. If they are half as much of an enthusiast as you are or claim to be, then they'll respond with a competitive initiative of some sort. But this price war has to end. It really is not fair to American consumers. I know I'm personally tired that for the past 8 years, I've been handed piles of bulls#!t with a petunia sticking out of it and being told its the same bushel of roses I've always gotten.
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The type of people that Voltex aims their products to are the only people that can afford, appreciate, and use them for their intended purpose and these people will always buy their products, so therefore I highly doubt they are affected by the knockoff companies. But yeah, knockoffs suck.
Well here is how i see the whole JDM thing (which some people live and die by). Reason why people like me and 95% of others look at parts from japan see how much they are and how much it cost to ship and the wait time for certin parts its not worth the price. It doesnt matter how much they spend on r&d on a product if they want to make a product in house and take to the time to do it right so be it they want to be able to keep there doors open they have to mass produce there products to where prices can come down. Anything can be mass produced even useing the highest quailty of materials yes the upfront cost might be very high but it will still be cheaper to make then if they did it in house. Ex: a hood once you have a final piece send it out to be mass produced upfront cost for 1000 pieces ( est $200,000 )useing the highest grade carbon on the maket. Ok now you have a hood that cost $200 each to make you price the hood at $700 they sell hood to there vendors at $600 now the company that took the time to make the product makes double of what the cost of each hood is to make. So lets do the math. Hood sells for $700 to us the consumer vendors get the hood at $600 now the company that made the product gets $400 in profit the vendor gets $100 profit at the end of the day once all hoods are sold the company that made the product made in return $400,000 double what the upfront cost was. Thats more then enough to keep that company open.
Now on too the second part of your post knockoffs. Its very simple. They dont want no one making a copy of there product hire a legal dept. And every product you put out give it a patent # with a clause stateing if someone where to copy or anything with in the same layout will be sued for lose of profit and a long list of other matters. The company can contract out there legal help in the u.s. to take care of there matters. Its very simple you select the right group of people and you will never have to worry about someone taking your idea. The legal cost would be minimum becasue your legal dept would advise to have a legal notice in each product sent. Anyone who reads it will know right off the bat that cant make a copy of it becasue they might face a lawsuit that they will most likely not win and cost the person trying to make the copy money which there legal dept will tell them its not worth the risk.
So there is my stand point on the topic.
Now on too the second part of your post knockoffs. Its very simple. They dont want no one making a copy of there product hire a legal dept. And every product you put out give it a patent # with a clause stateing if someone where to copy or anything with in the same layout will be sued for lose of profit and a long list of other matters. The company can contract out there legal help in the u.s. to take care of there matters. Its very simple you select the right group of people and you will never have to worry about someone taking your idea. The legal cost would be minimum becasue your legal dept would advise to have a legal notice in each product sent. Anyone who reads it will know right off the bat that cant make a copy of it becasue they might face a lawsuit that they will most likely not win and cost the person trying to make the copy money which there legal dept will tell them its not worth the risk.
So there is my stand point on the topic.
ULTRADEF - BS - my Evo (with TE37s) is my daily driver and I have the knicks, scratches, and dents to show for it. Yeah, it sucks when your things get wrecked but (a) these parts are made to be USED, and (b) it sucks more to support copy cats.
isnt that what i stated in my original post? lmao my car is not a garage queen nore is it only driven to weekend car shows, i drive mine 3 times a week or more. if i were to spring for some volks it would break my heart to see them chip scratch or get dinged up. i've lost my boy racer dreams at my current age not all parts have to be the big bucks top of line things, especially if another company makes a similar part with just as good quality for a damn cheaper price. true you get what you pay for but you should know what to buy and what not to buy.
then you wasted 3 to 4 grand on some nice wheels, if you think thats practical then do you, but like i said i speak for myself and others who argee if you got the money to buy it and wreck and buy it again then go for it. as for me im looking for something with good quality and good looks for of course a good price a 1300 dollar hood is not practical as supposed seibon who has been in the game quite some time since i recall all the way back in 01 or 02 are knocking their products?
well if seibon is going to sell it cheaper then i guess i would also be one to buy from them. as i said before IF THE "JDM" companies want us to stop buying US knockoff exterior parts then lower your prices. and everyone will flock to you guys. idk give two ****s if its tunnel tested most of us arent gonna be hitting 170mph on a regular basis lol my evo is drivein 3 days outa the week and i dont think i ever hit past 80 usually on the turnpike.
isnt that what i stated in my original post? lmao my car is not a garage queen nore is it only driven to weekend car shows, i drive mine 3 times a week or more. if i were to spring for some volks it would break my heart to see them chip scratch or get dinged up. i've lost my boy racer dreams at my current age not all parts have to be the big bucks top of line things, especially if another company makes a similar part with just as good quality for a damn cheaper price. true you get what you pay for but you should know what to buy and what not to buy.
then you wasted 3 to 4 grand on some nice wheels, if you think thats practical then do you, but like i said i speak for myself and others who argee if you got the money to buy it and wreck and buy it again then go for it. as for me im looking for something with good quality and good looks for of course a good price a 1300 dollar hood is not practical as supposed seibon who has been in the game quite some time since i recall all the way back in 01 or 02 are knocking their products?
well if seibon is going to sell it cheaper then i guess i would also be one to buy from them. as i said before IF THE "JDM" companies want us to stop buying US knockoff exterior parts then lower your prices. and everyone will flock to you guys. idk give two ****s if its tunnel tested most of us arent gonna be hitting 170mph on a regular basis lol my evo is drivein 3 days outa the week and i dont think i ever hit past 80 usually on the turnpike.
Last edited by donmeca2020; Jul 31, 2008 at 09:37 AM.
jmartinez, you are neglecting importation fees, exchange rates, delivery time, and overlooking the fact that not every company has access to $200,000 worth of capital for just ONE product on their product line.
Again, a patent is worthless unless you have the money to spend on a legal team to enforce the patent. Even with this the time in court and the money spent will not be worth it for a company of this nature. In the technology world, yes, this is a viable method... not in the import industry unfortunately. Even with such a disclaimer on the part warning about copies, I doubt that the companies that are interested in replicating the part will heed it. If they do, the factories in Singapore and Taiwan certainly will disregard it.
Again, a patent is worthless unless you have the money to spend on a legal team to enforce the patent. Even with this the time in court and the money spent will not be worth it for a company of this nature. In the technology world, yes, this is a viable method... not in the import industry unfortunately. Even with such a disclaimer on the part warning about copies, I doubt that the companies that are interested in replicating the part will heed it. If they do, the factories in Singapore and Taiwan certainly will disregard it.
ULTRADEF - BS - my Evo (with TE37s) is my daily driver and I have the knicks, scratches, and dents to show for it. Yeah, it sucks when your things get wrecked but (a) these parts are made to be USED, and (b) it sucks more to support copy cats.
then you wasted 3 to 4 grand on some nice wheels, if you think thats practical then do you, but like i said i speak for myself and others who argee if you got the money to buy it and wreck and buy it again then go for it. as for me im looking for something with good quality and good looks for of course a good price a 1300 dollar hood is not practical as supposed seibon who has been in the game quite some time since i recall all the way back in 01 or 02 are knocking their products? well if seibon is going to sell it cheaper then i guess i would also be one to buy from them. as i said before IF THE "JDM" companies want us to stop buying US knockoff exterior parts then lower your prices. and everyone will flock to you guys. idk give two ****s if its tunnel tested most of us arent gonna be hitting 170mph on a regular basis lol my evo is drivein 3 days outa the week and i dont think i ever hit past 80 usually on the turnpike.
then you wasted 3 to 4 grand on some nice wheels, if you think thats practical then do you, but like i said i speak for myself and others who argee if you got the money to buy it and wreck and buy it again then go for it. as for me im looking for something with good quality and good looks for of course a good price a 1300 dollar hood is not practical as supposed seibon who has been in the game quite some time since i recall all the way back in 01 or 02 are knocking their products?
well if seibon is going to sell it cheaper then i guess i would also be one to buy from them. as i said before IF THE "JDM" companies want us to stop buying US knockoff exterior parts then lower your prices. and everyone will flock to you guys. idk give two ****s if its tunnel tested most of us arent gonna be hitting 170mph on a regular basis lol my evo is drivein 3 days outa the week and i dont think i ever hit past 80 usually on the turnpike.If you're looking for good quality, why not get the guaranteed quality of the name brand? You aren't going to get top quality for a bottom line price... things just don't work like that. If you don't give to poopies about it being wind-tunnel tested then Voltex actually isn't for you. Voltex designs their parts to be functional... and in the process, they look great. There's more to a product than it's functionality... fitment, durability, and quality of materials are all taken into account. "Lower prices"... especially now with our extremely weak US dollar, that's almost impossible to do. It's not that simple.
Its a shame that other companies rely on other ppl design to make money . Yet we lose another jap vendor that will never make quality parts for those out there. That are willing to put the sweat and blood into obatining one of there high end parts. 
I don't understand how you can say that he "wasted" money on legitimate and proven wheels? Unless your car is a show queen... it's going to get dings and bumps and scratches. It happens. It's a car. No part, no matter what it is will be unscathed. The difference here is that his Volks will probably handle the abuse without an issue without cracking or exploding. They might bend if he hits a nasty pothole, but you won't have to worry about them shattering.
If you're looking for good quality, why not get the guaranteed quality of the name brand? You aren't going to get top quality for a bottom line price... things just don't work like that. If you don't give to poopies about it being wind-tunnel tested then Voltex actually isn't for you. Voltex designs their parts to be functional... and in the process, they look great. There's more to a product than it's functionality... fitment, durability, and quality of materials are all taken into account. "Lower prices"... especially now with our extremely weak US dollar, that's almost impossible to do. It's not that simple.
If you're looking for good quality, why not get the guaranteed quality of the name brand? You aren't going to get top quality for a bottom line price... things just don't work like that. If you don't give to poopies about it being wind-tunnel tested then Voltex actually isn't for you. Voltex designs their parts to be functional... and in the process, they look great. There's more to a product than it's functionality... fitment, durability, and quality of materials are all taken into account. "Lower prices"... especially now with our extremely weak US dollar, that's almost impossible to do. It's not that simple.
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From: VEGAS
maybe its the month(s) wait times, sometimes shady importers and dist., extreme shipping costs, etc.
I myself wont buy knock offs. I also wont buy something that is not in this country.
That is cheap insurance to myself after the times I have had to pick up the pieces as thieves have ran off with hundreds of my hard earned dollars.
While Voltex is someone I respect a huge amount, there are many "JDM" companies that are worse than American companies making knock offs IMO.
I wont say names, but do you know that almost half if not more of the JDM coilovers are made in the same factory? And no, its not that companies factory.
Some of these coilovers are the same yet when painted differently and adorned with that companies logo they command a healthy premium over the same item by another importer.
People still buy it because it is "blah blah"
We have come a ways but there is no finish line in sight.
I myself wont buy knock offs. I also wont buy something that is not in this country.
That is cheap insurance to myself after the times I have had to pick up the pieces as thieves have ran off with hundreds of my hard earned dollars.
While Voltex is someone I respect a huge amount, there are many "JDM" companies that are worse than American companies making knock offs IMO.
I wont say names, but do you know that almost half if not more of the JDM coilovers are made in the same factory? And no, its not that companies factory.
Some of these coilovers are the same yet when painted differently and adorned with that companies logo they command a healthy premium over the same item by another importer.
People still buy it because it is "blah blah"
We have come a ways but there is no finish line in sight.
This problem isn't just in performance parts, it's in EVERY industry. You either build a business model on innovation and selling a product for X amount of time that no one else has, thus recouping your investment. OR you wait for others to innovate, create a knock off and fight it out in the marketplace with every other knock off manufacturer out there.
I do wish that patent laws were more easily enforced, but if cancelling a product line is actually cheaper than litigating against the knock off vendors (which results in damages $ and penalty $, and acts as a deterrent against future copying) then you probably weren't going to be able to recover your large investment from niche market sales in the first place. If "Innovators" can't make a product that is either clearly superior in quality, profitable enough to warrant a patent and defending their marketshare, or at a competitive price point, then they shouldn't be in the market!
I don't feel bad if a JDM company can't overcharge for parts in the US because someone here makes it cheaper or better and the JDM company can't justify fighting for the marketshare. I also wouldn't feel a bit bad if the JDM companies took the US companies to court, defended their turf, and sued them into bankrupcy and then bought their manufacturing plants at the firesale. There's no reason JDM couldn't "knock off" their own products here if it is really that profitable.
I do wish that patent laws were more easily enforced, but if cancelling a product line is actually cheaper than litigating against the knock off vendors (which results in damages $ and penalty $, and acts as a deterrent against future copying) then you probably weren't going to be able to recover your large investment from niche market sales in the first place. If "Innovators" can't make a product that is either clearly superior in quality, profitable enough to warrant a patent and defending their marketshare, or at a competitive price point, then they shouldn't be in the market!
I don't feel bad if a JDM company can't overcharge for parts in the US because someone here makes it cheaper or better and the JDM company can't justify fighting for the marketshare. I also wouldn't feel a bit bad if the JDM companies took the US companies to court, defended their turf, and sued them into bankrupcy and then bought their manufacturing plants at the firesale. There's no reason JDM couldn't "knock off" their own products here if it is really that profitable.
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From: VT
This problem isn't just in performance parts, it's in EVERY industry. You either build a business model on innovation and selling a product for X amount of time that no one else has, thus recouping your investment. OR you wait for others to innovate, create a knock off and fight it out in the marketplace with every other knock off manufacturer out there.
Sure things are different in the aftermarket world, but unless someone has a patent, a carbon fiber hood is a carbon fiber hood no matter how you slice it. Ultimately it's the consumer that knows what they have, and what they show off. If they're proud they saved so much on the knock off, then go ahead and show people what a cheap *** you are. If you're proud to have the original, then let people see how much quality means to you.
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thats fine and well, i know you arent going to get great things for crack head prices, BUT i cant recall if it was a vendor or it was just another member. anyways for someone to go and say rotas are crap i've had some on my car for god almost a year now with absolutely no problems. and in all reality only damn reason anyone of these members buy VOLKS is because the bling bling factor it has nothing to do with fuctionality. AND IN ALL REALITY I THINK THE ONLY REASON YOU VENDORS ARE COMPLAINING FOR THEM IS BECAUSE YOU HAVE A LARGE AMOUNT OF THESE PRODUCTS GETTING DUSTY IN YOUR WAREHOUSES AND THEY ARENT SELLING THATS WHY THESE COMPLAINTS ARE COMING OUT. too bad so sad. as i said they want us to buy their stuff instead of the usdm clones lower the prices thats it, everyone wants their moneys worth nowadays i mean unless your one of these big balling guys who have the money to **** away for a 1000 dollar hood then go for it but other then that i dont think too many are like that nowadays.
I completely agree with a lot of the points the OP makes and it really does suck for a company like voltex to make such a high quality hood.
However, the only thing that i'd like to point out is that it is no way a moral obligation of the consumer to uphold any sense of moral code in their purchases.
Take this hood for example. Some guy in Virginia sees it and loves it, but realizes that he can't shell out the 1300 dollars for it even if it is worth every penny.
He then sees the seibon hood, much ****tier in weaver with a ****ty *** clearcoat to boot. However, its only 500 bucks from a local vendor. Is it wrong for the guy to buy a part he wants? Its not part of his duty to ensure that voltex sees the financial return that he deserves. I understand that this is one lone scenario, but it is a collage of these separate scenarios that fuel the knockoff market.
Now lets look at the whole rexpeed thing where the quality is actually up to par with the original jdm parts. Yes it sux that alot of there stuff are blatant copies of other items. However, the quality is second to none. Now the lone customer is faced with either paying 200 for a rexpeed part and 450 for the "authentic" part that is of the same quality. Again its not wrong to choose the cheaper option. As a customer and an individual, our priority goes something like this. Supporting those we love, supporting ourselves, using our spare money to finance a hobby... etc etc. And trust me when I say that spending an extra 250 so that a highly prestigious company gets the proper return for r&d is the least of our worries.
Furthermore, it also has to be stated that although the evo is a performance car, it is not a pure RACE car. 90 percent of us use it as a dd rather than a weekend race car. That being said, most of the guys on this forum couldn't care less if voltex stops innovating with wind tunneled parts. Because most of us buy a hood for looks. (don't argue with me on this, if it was any other way, then why do so many evo owners replace the light *** aluminum hood for the just as heavy ****ty made seibon ones). Therefore we don't care about the half second the hood might shave off our trip to ralphs.
I'm just giving you my point of view from a customers perspective. I completely agree with you on how much it sucks for certain companies. However, thats an issue that should be taken care of internally or legally. Customers don't have any said moral obligation to ensure that companies get proper returns. Only thing that governs our purchases in a free market is supply and demand.
However, the only thing that i'd like to point out is that it is no way a moral obligation of the consumer to uphold any sense of moral code in their purchases.
Take this hood for example. Some guy in Virginia sees it and loves it, but realizes that he can't shell out the 1300 dollars for it even if it is worth every penny.
He then sees the seibon hood, much ****tier in weaver with a ****ty *** clearcoat to boot. However, its only 500 bucks from a local vendor. Is it wrong for the guy to buy a part he wants? Its not part of his duty to ensure that voltex sees the financial return that he deserves. I understand that this is one lone scenario, but it is a collage of these separate scenarios that fuel the knockoff market.
Now lets look at the whole rexpeed thing where the quality is actually up to par with the original jdm parts. Yes it sux that alot of there stuff are blatant copies of other items. However, the quality is second to none. Now the lone customer is faced with either paying 200 for a rexpeed part and 450 for the "authentic" part that is of the same quality. Again its not wrong to choose the cheaper option. As a customer and an individual, our priority goes something like this. Supporting those we love, supporting ourselves, using our spare money to finance a hobby... etc etc. And trust me when I say that spending an extra 250 so that a highly prestigious company gets the proper return for r&d is the least of our worries.
Furthermore, it also has to be stated that although the evo is a performance car, it is not a pure RACE car. 90 percent of us use it as a dd rather than a weekend race car. That being said, most of the guys on this forum couldn't care less if voltex stops innovating with wind tunneled parts. Because most of us buy a hood for looks. (don't argue with me on this, if it was any other way, then why do so many evo owners replace the light *** aluminum hood for the just as heavy ****ty made seibon ones). Therefore we don't care about the half second the hood might shave off our trip to ralphs.
I'm just giving you my point of view from a customers perspective. I completely agree with you on how much it sucks for certain companies. However, thats an issue that should be taken care of internally or legally. Customers don't have any said moral obligation to ensure that companies get proper returns. Only thing that governs our purchases in a free market is supply and demand.