Cost of 500 wHP ?
Mar 23, 2019, 02:55 PM
#16
Based on what? That isn't a terrible answer. His definition of reliability may be different than yours.
In general, likelihood of failure and power output are positively correlated. You might get lucky. You might throw a rod. Both have happened and will continue to happen.
In general, likelihood of failure and power output are positively correlated. You might get lucky. You might throw a rod. Both have happened and will continue to happen.
Mar 23, 2019, 03:00 PM
#17
Mar 25, 2019, 09:55 AM
#18
EvoM Guru
iTrader: (1)
Based on what? That isn't a terrible answer. His definition of reliability may be different than yours.
In general, likelihood of failure and power output are positively correlated. You might get lucky. You might throw a rod. Both have happened and will continue to happen.
In general, likelihood of failure and power output are positively correlated. You might get lucky. You might throw a rod. Both have happened and will continue to happen.
So, yes, saying something like "the stock motor is unreliable past 500whp" is indeed wrong. Especially since, stock for stock, the 4b11 is stronger than the 4g63.
Mar 25, 2019, 10:53 AM
#19
Yeah try telling that to a die hard 4g63 fan. I've never heard anyone make that statement before actually, I've thought nowadays people realize that the 4b11 is just as strong as a 4g63 or close to it. So is the 4b11 stronger or just more reliable? Or maybe both? Everyone thinks because the 4g is a closed deck cast iron block it's a lot stronger than a 4b. So what makes a 4b "stronger"?
Mar 25, 2019, 12:06 PM
#20
EvoM Guru
iTrader: (1)
The stock rods will fail before the open deck is a concern. That being said, the rods in the 4b11 are slightly shorter and have a more substantial beam than 4g63 rods. Making them stronger. The block also uses 4 bolt mains and a more substantial girdle.
Like I said, stronger when compared stock for stock. Once you have a built engine, the 4b11 does require being sleeved to stay together and keep up with the 4g with max effort level stuff past 650-700whp or so. To say one is substantially better than the other means the person saying it really probably doesn't know much. English Racing has the Evo8 with a 4g63 running 7's, and the EvoX with the 4b11 ran an 8.11 at TX2k19, knocking on the 7 second door in a heavier car. They're both great engines.
Like I said, stronger when compared stock for stock. Once you have a built engine, the 4b11 does require being sleeved to stay together and keep up with the 4g with max effort level stuff past 650-700whp or so. To say one is substantially better than the other means the person saying it really probably doesn't know much. English Racing has the Evo8 with a 4g63 running 7's, and the EvoX with the 4b11 ran an 8.11 at TX2k19, knocking on the 7 second door in a heavier car. They're both great engines.
Mar 25, 2019, 02:56 PM
#21
P = T ω
P = power (W)
T = torque or moment (Nm)
ω = angular velocity (rad/s)
But, I understand what you are saying. My original point was that there are too many variables to really answer the question being asked. There are hundreds of possible "right" answers.
Mar 25, 2019, 03:28 PM
#22
EvoM Guru
iTrader: (1)
You do understand that Power is a function of Torque, right?
P = T ω
P = power (W)
T = torque or moment (Nm)
ω = angular velocity (rad/s)
But, I understand what you are saying. My original point was that there are too many variables to really answer the question being asked. There are hundreds of possible "right" answers.
P = T ω
P = power (W)
T = torque or moment (Nm)
ω = angular velocity (rad/s)
But, I understand what you are saying. My original point was that there are too many variables to really answer the question being asked. There are hundreds of possible "right" answers.
There aren't variables other than OEM engines tend to follow the 10/90/10 rule. 10% blow up, 90% make around average power for the setup, and 10% make more than expected for the setup. You spec the right parts and 550whp+ is perfectly fine on a stock 4b11. The 10% that blow up are more likely to meet an earlier demise on a 400whp/400wtq stock turbo E85 setup than they are with say a Vband 5858 at 550whp/400wtq. So, again, to make a blanket statement of, "4b11's are unreliable past 500whp," is simply wrong.
Mar 25, 2019, 05:50 PM
#23
1). Nobody said that. What was actually said was: "I think reliability takes a nose dive when over 400 whp". You said that that was "100% false"...then you brought up a 10/90/10 rule, which I would like to point out doesn't add up to 100%. I am being a dick, but I thought that that was funny. I am not arguing that these cars CANNOT be reliable. I never said that that wasn't a possibility. What I said was: "In general, likelihood of failure and power output are positively correlated. You might get lucky. You might throw a rod. Both have happened and will continue to happen." I simply pointed out a correlation. There is room in there on both sides.
2). Are you willing to make the claim that stock 4B11's are reliable past 500whp? That seems like a really bold statement.
Mar 26, 2019, 09:36 AM
#24
EvoM Guru
iTrader: (1)
Originally Posted by NFSEvolutionGSR
Okay, so two things.
1). Nobody said that. What was actually said was: "I think reliability takes a nose dive when over 400 whp". You said that that was "100% false"...then you brought up a 10/90/10 rule, which I would like to point out doesn't add up to 100%. I am being a dick, but I thought that that was funny. I am not arguing that these cars CANNOT be reliable. I never said that that wasn't a possibility. What I said was: "In general, likelihood of failure and power output are positively correlated. You might get lucky. You might throw a rod. Both have happened and will continue to happen." I simply pointed out a correlation. There is room in there on both sides.
2). Are you willing to make the claim that stock 4B11's are reliable past 500whp? That seems like a really bold statement.
1). Nobody said that. What was actually said was: "I think reliability takes a nose dive when over 400 whp". You said that that was "100% false"...then you brought up a 10/90/10 rule, which I would like to point out doesn't add up to 100%. I am being a dick, but I thought that that was funny. I am not arguing that these cars CANNOT be reliable. I never said that that wasn't a possibility. What I said was: "In general, likelihood of failure and power output are positively correlated. You might get lucky. You might throw a rod. Both have happened and will continue to happen." I simply pointed out a correlation. There is room in there on both sides.
2). Are you willing to make the claim that stock 4B11's are reliable past 500whp? That seems like a really bold statement.
I can tell you don't have a lot experience building these cars. Neither does 2006evo9er or however he has it spelled.
I'd rather have a car with a 5858 at 550whp then a stock turbo car at 400whp. So, yes, I'm saying it's more reliable. For many reasons. Modifying anything is a risk. An arbitrary cut off at X whp is incorrect. Plain and simple.
Mar 26, 2019, 12:10 PM
#25
I think nowadays especially with the internet and kids on youtube and stuff everything has got all twisted up. Like you said, modifying anything is a risk but people don't see that, they only see numbers. It's already been proved many times that the X can make over 500whp and still be reliable and there's just too many variables. Like one guy on youtube has the same turbo kit as me and made close to 700whp on his stock block, he had a good tune, all supporting mods and took care of his car and I don't recall him ever having any issues.
Mar 26, 2019, 02:58 PM
#26
Me again...
There is only one more teeny little issue that I want to raise. I see power figures thrown around a lot on these forums, and no times... Now, I am not a fan of drag racing. I don't understand the point, especially in cars like these. I also don't make outrageous power claims. None of what I have built is meant for that sort of thing. However...in for time slips? I doubt some of these people claiming 550WHP (or 700WHP for that matter) are really making it. Notice I said some, not all.
Mar 26, 2019, 03:10 PM
#27
Okay, fair enough. I leave you with this:
Mar 27, 2019, 09:39 AM
#28
EvoM Guru
iTrader: (1)
You can believe whatever you want.
Mar 19, 2022, 01:25 AM
#29
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My suggestion is a costly one but if you go with a Borgwarner EFR T4 turbo like a 7163 or even 7670 you can make much better power than stock and spool super fast. To get the turbo kit alone would be around $6,000 tho, + you'll need supporting mods, + labor/tune. If you went that route you'd have a very fun car and a 7670 can definitely make 500+ whp on e85. But that would probably be around $10,000 between parts and labor. That's the expensive route (imo the best if money wasn't an issue)
A cheaper route would be to get a MHI 18K or Garrett GTX3076r stock location turbo and make somewhere between 400-500whp. Turbo is around $2,000 + whatever supporting mods you need that you don't have already + labor/tune. I think it can be done under $5,000??
Like others have said, you need to figure out what you want out of your car. It's easy to get lost in the numbers games but look up turbo options and see how they're spool/response is and know that the bigger you go the laggier it'll be so it may not be as much fun for people who want fast spool time, but maybe that's something you don't personally care about. I did A LOT of research on many different turbos to figure out which one I thought was best for what I wanted so look up threads on turbos that you're interested, there's plenty information out there.
A cheaper route would be to get a MHI 18K or Garrett GTX3076r stock location turbo and make somewhere between 400-500whp. Turbo is around $2,000 + whatever supporting mods you need that you don't have already + labor/tune. I think it can be done under $5,000??
Like others have said, you need to figure out what you want out of your car. It's easy to get lost in the numbers games but look up turbo options and see how they're spool/response is and know that the bigger you go the laggier it'll be so it may not be as much fun for people who want fast spool time, but maybe that's something you don't personally care about. I did A LOT of research on many different turbos to figure out which one I thought was best for what I wanted so look up threads on turbos that you're interested, there's plenty information out there.
This is kind of the setup I went with.. Forged Manley pistons, I beam rods. Sleeved. Acl race bearings rods and crank, ID1700 injectors, Borg Warner EFR S500 (88/110) whalbro 450 pump, AEM fuel pressure gauge steel braided lines, ETS intake, ETS intercooler, stainless steel valves springs retainers on built machined ported head. TWM short shift, 4:18 final drive. Cometic head gasket, arp head studs. MAP tubular manifold, 5" catless downpipe, 4" exhaust, ETS dual wastegate dump pipes. Pro- tuned on Dyno at 500wheel by Ryan faldowski from horsepower unlimited. I am told it's capable of 800wheel after break in period with e-85/meth. Exeddy twin disk clutch. Aem wideband and boost gauge. I'm 5-600whp now on 91 pump and I'm happy with it. Best we get in Utah unless I switch to a stronger fuel. I can't even launch this setup bec I get no traction in first or second. Spins all 4 for days. But total cost... $20k
Mar 24, 2022, 07:29 AM
#30
Evolved Member
Since this thread has been revived I think it's safe to say the cost of making this power has gone up by 1.5-2x now in 2022 as it was in 2018/2019. Especially if you live outside of the USA.
I can sell my ETS T4 turbo kit now, used, for more than I paid for it brand new, straight from ETS, a few years back. It's insane.
I can sell my ETS T4 turbo kit now, used, for more than I paid for it brand new, straight from ETS, a few years back. It's insane.
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