Im just getting a few thousand for down payment, still have to finance it. Prob putting $5000-$8000 down.

 

you said you might want to mod the car, and a lot of people have been misleading you in this thread, suggesting the Evo is much cheaper to mod and responds much better. This just isn't true. The Evo has shown more potential if you want over 600whp, but honestly 95% of evo owner will never get close to that. I dont think its more capable, I just think evo owners are more into extreme modding than bmw owners.

As far as the 335 goes, a tune with a Cobb AP, which is $300 more than the evo x version, will give you 313hp, and 378ftlb to the wheels. I absolutely LOVE the torque produced by the I6 engine... it's my favorite engine config,a nd 378ftlb shows why.

Add an intake, exhaust and FMIC, the the cobb stage2 is good for 363hp and 424ftlb! Everything, including the tune, is under $4000.

In evo land, the cobb tune will get you to about 287whp, 299ftlb. A stage2 package, will only put you at 296hp, 310ftlb and still requires a full turbo-back exhaust ($1800 package). You're still slower than the BMW with just a tune!
The 335 is a bit more expensive, but it has over 100ftlb in torque difference, and a pretty significant power advantage to boot. It'll be quicker than an evo with full boltons and a pro tune.

The next step up adds at least $2500 to the evo cost to upgradeto a stock-frame with huge drawbacks the more aggressive you go (lag), and can cost you much much more in supporting mods. But the BMW still keeps the advantage. Now you need to rebuild the evo engine to get any longevity, and that's huge money.

you can get near 600whp with the stock turbos, stock engine internals, and bolt-ons anyway, so its unlikely you'll ever want to go that far. In the evo, you'll need to totally rebuild the engine and replace the turbo to get there.... expect to pay around $12k to play.

Point is... 335's make good power on a budget

 

i have rented one for 2 moths in Switzerland last year. Its is BS. good gas milage , uncomfortable seats, confusing GPS and stereo system, small car. Top of all tops out before you reach the end of the speed dial.... Takes a loooong time to get there also. very strong under steer in twisties etc. I was highly dissapointed.

here is a picture my buddy made it trough the steering wheel with his Iphone one night going "home"




but Octoberfest rocks!

 

Your a bit off on your statement. Here is the closet 2 comparisons for a 335 and an X; FYI a 335 will always have higher whp/wtq because they have about half the drivetrain loss (rwd vs awd):

Same time of year, same fuel, same OTS maps....not really as crazy as you make it seem. And when you consider the drivetrain loss it gets even worse for the 335(I even gave you the better 335is model).

 

Now we jump it up to the Stage 2 with TBE/FMIC you were talking about:

Once again, not as insane as use seem to thinnk. Question, I notice on ever dyno they only rev to 6-6.5k, what's up with that?

 

As expected with an engine that has 50% larger displacement, under 3k rpm they make a whole lot more torque. After that the "wimpy" 2.0 out revs it. And I'm not even digging into how much it costs to do these (obvious who the edge goes to, anything made for BMW's have a 50% price premium, just cross shop exhausts).

 

i'm not sure what's this impressive technology that puts a big gap between bmw and evo? i currently own both evo x and e46. whenever i get my e46 serviced they lend me an e90 x drive and i didn't really feel or see much advancement rather than the i-drive? unless i missed something and the steering felt more numb and required more steering input. as far as AWD technology is concerned i think evo is way ahead of any e90 x drives has to offer. but if you'll say luxury is far more impressive in an bmw than the evo that's a given.

 

From the examples given so far in the thread, the "impressive technology" has nothing to do with the drivetrain. They are all referencing shiny lights and buttons in the cockpit, which BMW definitely gets a large edge on. On a side rant I'm still really disappointed that Mitsu still doesn't provide auto-dimming mirrors as standard, those things come on every car these days; they can raise the MSRP by $200 w/ better visors and rearview mirrors (my old 2004 Corolla had better ones for OEM)

 

i was going off cobb's "official" numbers, since they're using cars with just the stage mods, not a bunch of extra random crap to complicate the comparison. apples to apples:





as far cost of parts go, it's not really much different. Yes exhaust parts for a 6cyl 3.0L engine cost more than those for a 4cyl 2.0L because you need more parts. The 335 has two full 2.5" turbo-back exhaust systems... two downpipes, two pipe sections, two cats, two mufflers. Thats why they cost more, not because there's some imaginary 'its a bmw' premium. The same shops making BMW parts make all our Evo parts, and they do it with the same materials, and the same equipment.

 

Do you even hear the crap coming out of your mouth:
So which is it???
Everyone knows that all things BMW get a 30-50% premium because the manufactures KNOW they can charge more money to someone who will overpay for the car to start with, economics of price discrimination 101. As a simple example, the HKS Legamax Catback Exhaust (very common brand, not some odd one off argument) for the X is $800, but $2000 for the 335, hmmmmmmm.......

I used your EXACT reference when digging up the facts:
So now when the facts no longer match up to your opinion, you feel the need to start crying foul??

It doesn't get any more even than same OTS Map, same fuel type, same time of year (even same day in some cases). Let alone the fact you won't even acknowledge that the rwd has ~9% drive-train loss compared with the awd having ~20% drive-train loss. For example:
400chp * .91 = 364whp
400chp * .80 = 320whp
Both cars have the same power output, despite different whp results. Forget the one dyno vs another, this is the same dyno at the same location, some on the same day. Can't refute the facts, sorry to burst your bubble. As you said, we can't use custom tunes since things start changing wildly (price included).

 

*sigh* your making my point. I said that people were spewing nonsense about this topic, and you just validated that pioint by spewing nonsense. where to begin... from the top i guess.

Ok, so you're suggesting that Cobb sets their AP price based on the MSRP of the car it's intended to be used on? You're wrong. The AP is so cheap for Mitsubishis because we have the best open source ECU reverse engineering community in the world. Cobb had to do very little to get the AP to support our cars. They even hired Tephra last year, who did pretty much all the work free before hand! Just look at the AP's price for the Mini Cooper. The Evo AP is $600, yet the Mini is $900. Wait, if the AP price follows you theory of "economics of price discrimination 101", then it should only cost $325... but it cost MORE than the Evo AP! WHats going on! Oh right, the Mini opensource ECU community is non-existent and Cobb actually had to hire engineers to do the work. Same as they had to do with the BMW, who's AP is $800 (less than the Mini version). And the GT-R, who's AP is $1500! It has nothing to do with "price discrimination" and everything to do with return on investment and competition. Your wrong on that account.

Lets test your theory that all BMW parts are marked up 30-50%. Compared to what? A markup has to be based on a benchmark. I assume you mean based on the price of equivalent parts in the Evo marketplace, so we'll go with that.

Even though I already explained that the 335i I6 engine uses twice as much exhaust piping as the Evo since it runs two independent turbo-back exhaust systems, where the Evo only runs 1, you seem to ignore that reality and still make up numbers to make a point. Who's selling the HKS Legamax for $2000 and actually moving them? No one, because they go for $1650. Is most of your mark-up imaginary? So the single-exhaust of the Evo is $800, and the dual-exhaust of the 335 is $1650. You mean twice as much material and labor cost twice as much? What kind of crazy world is this? Again, your wrong.

Since exhausts are the worst thing to compare, lets look at stuff that's more apples to apples to try to find these BMW price discrimination examples. How about brakes: Stoptech big break kit for the Evo X is $5790.00. So the identical kit for a 335i must cost at least 30-50% more, over $7500, right? Well, it's actually $5790.00. The same exact price. Blasphemy!

Ok, maybe that's a fluke. Lets look at intercoolers. The ETS intercooler kit is $944 for the Evo X. So again, we'd expect the BMW intercooler kit from ETS to be like $1300 at least... nope, it's $770. WTF is this crap? Are BMW parts actually CHEAPER than Mitsubishi parts? Looks that way in this case....

How about clutches? AMS carries the ACT street clutch for the Evo X for $755. They also carry the same clutch for the 335 for just $650. Have I made my point yet?

So there, you're wrong. You accused me of making up numbers, and it took me all of 10 mins to validate everything i said. The irony of this situation amazes me. I point out that people spew BS to argue that the 335 is more expensive to mod than the X, and you attempt to refute my statement by doing exactly what I warned that many idiots attempt to do, without attempting to back it up at all. Since you obviously wont believe anything unless your hand is held, let me continue to spell it out for you

This is all just talking bits-and-pieces. Lets look at the big picture. Say you're goal to avg hp and tq to about 350whp/tq.

On the Evo, you'll need full bolt-ons and a tune. With the 335, you'll just need a tune. Lets price this out at AMS:
335 Stage 1 (just a cobb ap): $895.00, no labor (just a flash)
Evo X Stage 1 and Stage 2 kits: $4129.80, 6-8hrs labor to install downpipe, test pipe, catback, intake, uicp, licp, fmic, bov, boost gauge

Wow, the 335 is off to an early lead. I'm sure that price discrimination will catch up soon. Sure you can shop around and get better deals for both cars and find cheaper alternatives, but the AMS price is higher for both cars so it's a good comparison.

So 350hp/tq is pretty basic. Lets see what happens if we go to 400hp/tq avg.

With the 335, we'll have to add an fmic, downpipes, exhaust, and an aftermarket panel filter. AMS doesn't carry a catback for the BMW, so I'll use the $1,556.00 price for the CP-E exhaust. It's one of the best available for the 335 imo. All that comes out to an extra $3,241.90, bringing the total to $4,136.9. Figure about 5-6hrs labor.

The evo needs a new turbo to get any farther. That'll also need new injectors, fuel rail, fuel pump, 3port BCS, cams, clutch, cmc. Priced out at AMS with a BBX, DW1000's, AMS rail, Boomba fuel pump, AMS/Kilford TMP cam + springs, ACT HD clutch, AMS CMC, and GS 3port to $5325.34, bringing the grand total for a 400whp/tq avg Evo X to $9455.14. We're also in custom tune territory, so we could add $500 for tuning and dyno time, but I won't since I'm a nice guy Labor time, this will take most shops about 14-16 hours, putting us 20-24hrs so far (plus tuning time).

So the gap has closed a bit in terms of price percentage, but the Evo is still costing WAY more, over 2x as much. Again, sure you can shop around and change numbers a bit for both cars, but the comparison is the same.

We're at the point now with the evo where we're playing with fire. The 335 has a high quality set of forged internals that you don't have to worry about, but the Evo rods are junk and need upgraded before any more power can be made. In fact, it's a good idea to upgrade them at this point, anyway. The AMS stage-1 block with all the stuff you'll need will cost you another $4322.52. You can go with a SpeedCircuit block for $3,149, but that's still some serious cash for an upgrade that gives you no extra power. If you go with the simple AMS block and their smallest turbo kit, the bill comes to $10,227.82! Did I mention turbo lag? Might want to spend the extra $4k at this point for the 2.4L block upgrade

With the 335, you get a free pass here as the internals are already rock solid. Heck the stock clutch is even good, as is the auto trans if you went that route. Now going bigger is where you get into trouble, as its mostly uncharted territory for the BMW. most people just add a 100-shot of nitrous at this stage and put down 550-600 pretty easily. A few have broken the 700hp mark this way and are nearing 10-second 1/4 times, but that's cheating There's no real turbo kits yet so you have to go custom to upgrade the turbos. Some places offer stock-frame turbo wheel upgrades (like the BBX/FP series for the Evo), but the stock design is already pretty good and the benefits aren't worth it (like $2500 for maybe 50hp). HPF is coming out with a kit shortly, and it's priced at just under $6k, which is fair considering its two turbos, two headers, two downpipes, etc. Consider that with a 335, you've already saved about $8500-$10k just getting to this point versus the evo, and most evo T3/T4 full kits will cost about $6k as well, and it's still very much in the 335i's favor.

So like i was saying.... people tend to spew a bunch of nonsense crap about the 335 being expensive to mod while the evo is cheap. This is complete fantasy bull. Getting 500whp/tq is much easier and inexpensive in the 335 than the Evo.

ps - I'm talking N54 only. I dunno jack about the N55, but since its single turbo, but it should be cheaper

 

i am not really sure i do get this, so you guys argueing which car makes more power cheaper?
I do not think unless its a drag the BMW will be a cheaper solution going fast vs the evo, unless maybe drag or very highspeed "roll". Which i do not care both and i find them lame anyway (personal opinion)

all other categories , you need a lot more money to put in the lot more expensive car if you want to make it equal to the Evo. And i am not even say make it faster...
If you see videos BMW runs with a EVO just as fast, then switch drivers and see what happens... LOL
power numbers are often missleads people, to beilive as the other car hp number is higher the car would be faster. The reality is much much more complicated.

Fact of the matter is BMW 3 series (not M) is not a sporty car like an EVo. And they shouldnt be. They are a family sedan with a power full engine that is all.
The Evo is a different level of performance out of box. Just many many people cant get to the point to realize it. Despite the beilives Evos is an easy car to drive. Which is true for a certain level. But to get to the Evo limit is a whole other stroy...

Rob

 

exactly what I was thinking. hp<>going fast, which is the actual goal. that said but the price analysis was very good and a nice wake up to some of us.

 

1) It comes down to how you want your car to "feel". The X feels fast and the E90/92 feels smooth.
2) The E90/92 handles very well, it just doesn't feel as balanced or as engaging as the X. Low and behold, the numb, unresponsive pig turns in the same lap time at VIR and the 'Ring...(I understand that those are tracks that would suite the E90/92 better, but it was a readily available quantifiable piece of info).
3) N54>4B11>N55. With just bolt ons, the N54 will make about 420whp (Not 500 whp) - which is enough for a high 11/low 12 car. Additionally, it will be a way better as a DD because it can make full tq below 2000 rpm - much nicer to drive in the city, you literally never have to down shift. The 4B11 is very nice, but you can tell that you are driving a 2.0 vs a 3.0.
4) The X will make the better track weapon.
5) They are both great/fun cars to drive - they just feel different. Drive them both and see which one you like better.
6) Never own an M car out of warranty. Dont even think about a 2008/9 M3.

 

same lap time on the 'ring?

8:26 BMW 335i E92 Coupe Horst von Saurma Sport Auto

vs.

8:05 BMW M3 E92 Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (12/2007)[59]

vs.

7:57 Lancer Evolution X GSR Mark Chandler AMS conducted test September 2011


source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...eife_lap_times

so.... which which one put in the same time as the Evo X?

or do you consider that a wash?

???