CJBarker2

Okay, guys, now this might be a sin, but hear me out:

I drive a 2002 Lancer OZ Rally edition, just to get that out of the way.

I have been doing work on the side with transmission rebuilds and whatnot, and while I was looking for a case for a 4T65E transmission in a Chevy Lumina, I came across some information that got me thinking.

GM made the 4T60 series and then later changed to the 4T65 series for reliability, among other things. A variation in this series was applied to AWD card, such as the Buick Rendezvous and some of the Buick minivans. My uncle has a Buick Riviera, 1998, which has a 3.8L S/C engine. My God, the tires on this thing are 40% wider on the ground than my puny Lancer's, and this car will spin them until you let off the gas--the front tires, not the back. The transmission on the 3.8L S/C and N/A engines is the 4T65E-HD (heavy duty) and has a slightly different gear ratio. On further research for the Versatrac (I think that's how it's spelled,) I found that it was available in the Olds Aurora V6, which means that it's feasible and in production in a car for the AWD setup, but on the GM 3.4L. Plus, I've noted that after a good tune-up, the Riviera gets 24-26 MPG, which isn't far off from what my Lancer gets, and is actually unreal for any other American V6 that I've ever seen. I figure I can't lose anything there from going to a smaller, lighter car with that engine.

I know that the tranny will bolt up to the motor, and I know I can get heavy duty parts for the tranny. I am probing here to ask anyone with experience in AWD Lancer swaps and/or with the GM AWD transmissions.

What parts do I need to fabricate mounts for? There is only one on the bottom of the engine and transmission, and the stock braces at the top of the motor seem to be replicable in smaller size to meet the needs of the smaller rail over the radiator.

How much room do I need for the transfer case to clear?

Can I use the same hubs that I have, or will they be too small altogether, even for custom half-shafts?

Where might I be able to source the rear hubs and spindles? What about driveshaft and exhaust pipe routing issues?

Rear differential clearance and mounting issues?

Suspension issues?

ECU/PCM problems? (Of course, stealing the computer from the engine donor rather than trying to use the Lancer's at all)

Please, I want and need information. I'm trying to get a feel for the money I need.

Also, don't come up here and whine about me throwing off the weight distribution and therefore killing the handling and whatnot, I've already thought my way around most of that. I am looking for information and feasibility at the moment. My transmission is shot after something failed from a rebuild, and rather than continue to piddle with it, I am looking into this as a possible alternative. Money is no object.

Thanks to all who hit on this! I hope I'm able to turn some heads in the near future.

CJBarker2

Reality check: Aurora is FWD, but the transmission is the M76 4T65E, which means that although it does not have the transfer case, it is adaptable to the transfer case.

CrAnSwIcK

iTrader: (5)

you're asking very specific questions about something that probably no one on this forum has done. AWD conversions on FWD lancers are complex, and it's been done...i'll tell you anything is possibly, because that is true, however the bother won't be worth what you get out of...

get an LSD and wider stickier tires...and 4g63 swap it...much easier. lots of transmission options for a 4G6 motor, and AWD. The engine mounting points are the same.

if AWD is the desire, it would be much cheaper, safer, and obviously easier to just buy an AWD car, or one that is easily AWD swapped, like a DSM or something...I've been thinking about getting a 2nd gen eclipse myself, but my childhood self keeps me holding out for my dream Evo.

if power, again...turbo stock engine, or swap to factory turbocharged engine...

do what you want, but you really have to consider the depth that's involved in what is essentially hot-rodding your lancer. I commend those who take on that venture, and if I could afford the time and high cost, I would probably do it, since I nearly have everything I need to fabricate brackets and a subframe myself.

If you're serious about this, I would be willing to help, but I don't know the dimensions of the engines and transmissions you're planning on using. But I would seriously just get another transmission, and throw an LSD in it. Who rebuilt it?

nismo n9ne

If this swap happens I'm interested. It will be far from cost effective, but it will be different. I've never heard of this swap taking place. Hell its rare to see someone put the time into making a lancer AWD. Best of luck if you choose this, you'll be writing the "how to" book for it.

Cheers

CJBarker2

Yeah, Crank, you're right. I typed this up in a whirlwind of thinking and didn't really see that I was asking questions like I was.

On one hand, some of this can be tightened up to be specific to the Lancer body, and on the other, it would really be dependent on the rear diff. and if the engine/transmission will even fit. I had planned on getting measurements today, but with the hurricane off the coast pounding the southeastern US with rain, I am stuck skipping out on that for today. So far, the only donor I have really found is a Buick Rendezvous, which has a reasonable T/C system in place, but I still have a lot of reading to do. There may be others, which, even though rare, do occasionally end up in local junkyards. I found a RalliART Lancer in the yard I frequent a few weeks ago. The move inventory like rainwater, so I wasn't able to get anything major from it. Off-topic, my bad.

Also, admittedly, I was the one who rebuilt my transmission, and I just sort of threw it together without consulting the manual for much more than torque specs. Lesson learned. Even if it takes forever, I won't make that mistake again. Weather kills the power to the shed I was working in. It rained for what seemed like an eternity as soon as I started to pull the transmission apart. I got antsy and just started putting things where they seemed to go. Caught several of my mistakes before I put it back together, but I guess you can't fix stupid without a fine-toothed comb-through.

Let me rewrite these questions and see what I can make better sense of. From what I understand, the Lancer and the Lancer Evolution have a similar body all around, of course, the Lancer having an intercooler and a different body kit and spoiler. There are also suspension differences and supporting modifications that would have to be made up for, especially with a beefier drivetrain, such as the 3800/4T65 pair. I need to find out what the Lancer body will ask of me, and what Lancer parts can remain. I will be doing some research on this today, as well, mostly to find the available parts from GM vehicles. I will repost with updated information later, but for now, this is what I need:

How much room does the Lancer have for a transfer case to clear, and is it centered or slightly offset? Here is a picture of the transfer case on the 4T65. It appears to be smaller than the one on the Evo, but I've never actually seen that beside the transmission. Since height is something I'll have to situate myself, I can raise or lower the engine to fit better all the way back.






Hubs and Spindles, now that I think about it, may not be as big of an issue as I initially thought. When I dropped my transmission, I replaced the half-shafts, and still have them. The Lumina I was inspired by happens to also have its half-shafts removed. When and if the rain stops, I will go out and check them over.

The driveshaft routing and exhaust piping seems simple enough to be done by the same path as the Evo. My buddy's old Camaro was stock with the exhaust pipe run through the tunnel, right beside the driveshaft. If you can show me how yours is run, that would be most useful. A Google Images search hasn't ever really been fruitful for anything more than the accursed cannon mufflers.

How much room do you have to have to mount the rear differential? Does it have to reach over to the hubs, or can it be a little shorter? Does this get in the way of the spare tire, which I am glad to cut out and weld flat with a plate. (Can't properly fit a full-size spare, anyway.)

I can't find the weight differences anywhere, but I know that it's a heavy a$$ motor that I'm talking about here. What can I do to the Lancer suspension to beef it up a little, so I don't look like a Chevy truck with my nose in the dirt.

I solved the tuning issue with my uncle last night. The program from the 3.8 donor should be transferrable to the 3.6 computer with the Versatrac system, or vice versa. Wiring harness differences are all I need to find for that.

Yeah, I know I'll be writing the how-to here haha I tend to come up with these crazy ideas and then put them together solidly. Money is the only thing that has ever held me back, but I really think that I can do this one within a year or two.


Anything at this point is helpful. I know that it sounds crazy, but there is a lot of potential here. Thanks so much, Crank and Nismo.

CJBarker2

I got out a few minutes ago and got some measurements. The GM 3.8L engine and 4T65E transmission combo is not much larger than the 4G94/F4A42 combo, in terms of dimensions. If I were to go back and check out the 3.8 again in the Riviera, the passenger side motor mount may also be usable, meaning that the only fabrication would be there, to mount the stock mount. I did not get a good look at the transmission mount, but the case does clear the bay. The setup comes in at about 33" wide and 24" deep, but I did not measure height. The Lancer engine bay, pre-2004 body change, is about 29" deep and 36"wide, give or take.

In doing some reading and talking to family, a big group of GM people, I learned that some 1990-94 Chevy Cavaliers run the same engine as the Lumina, which is almost 10" wider. The K-Frame from this car has been adapted to the 3.8 in the past, so if push comes to shove, that will be the base for the mounting everything. The airbox actually runs back behind the driver's side headlight, but a CAI setup for the Lancer with a larger filter should work.

Is there any way to move the radiator fans from the back of the radiator to the front? Being that this is going to be a fully-custom job from the front to the back, any vehicle can be a donor for parts. If I can fit a pusher setup on the front of the radiator and have it clear the framework,, that would be best. It would open up a couple of precious inches in the front of the motor for changing spark plugs.

There is a nearby shop for the half-shafts and driveshaft.

I apologize if this turns into a dump for information. I am currently trying to get information together for this. If it goes as well as it seems that it will, then there may be others who wish to perform this swap. In my experience, a dump is more useful than a few pieces here and there.

I am looking at purchasing the donor and roller in non-running condition and then proceed from there. Any information that I might miss between now and then would be immensely appreciated. Please, anyone, clue me in. I am not terribly familiar with the Lancer underbody and could really use all the help I can get when cutting and mounting things. Interior work is also going to be an issue, but I am relatively well-affiliated with the dash for all intents and purposes. Thanks for the support, to anyone following.

CJBarker2

Hey, guys! I have gotten another really bad idea that is pieced together really well this time. Once all the pieces are together, I will try to remember how to start a thread and make a project thread AND cover it on Youtube and Facebook through my business page, Fix It Up Mobile Mechanic Services.

I have the engine and harness laying around for the 3.8 GM V6, I just need to expedite their removal from the donor car because it needs to get scrapped soon. Once I catch up with what work I have around here, I will be coming into a pearl black 2002 Lancer OZ and I recently made a friend who can get me the parts for an Evo imported pretty cheap. I have found that the engine will bolt up to the bellhousing and transmission from a 2.5 Dodge Dakota 2WD transmission, and I will be looking deeper into what gear ratios are available in transmissions that will bolt up to that bellhousing. Since the mounts and bosses for the RWD setup should be present on the L67 3.8 engine, I am going to measure and center the engine (with whatever transmission I find best) where the shifter is in the correct position in the cab, then fabricate a bracket across the frame rails and secure it with either welds or sleeved bolts through the frame, probably the latter in case I decide to upgrade in the future. Keeping the supercharger to start, but I have two turbochargers around the house that I will be looking into mounting up, filters in the back corners and plumbed around the radiator to an intercooler with a cutout through the bumper and hood that will have to delete the hood latch (My first hood pins! ) so that it can run to the intake manifold, which I'll be replacing with the unit from a N/A 3.8 for the sake of budget knock control. Interior isn't a concern right now, as I'll be stealing both interior and exterior parts for my other Lancers, which will make fitting the driveline a little less retarding. The idea from there is to get ahold of either a) an Evo gas tank I can fit to the car, or b) a remote fuel cell I can fit somewhere in the trunk or back seat area, then, in either case, get rear hubs to match the front hubs, which will most likely be from a Chevy truck because I have the wheels on hand and love the way that they look, and a rear end.

The goal for this car is going to be a drift machine that I can take to the strip or to a track on the weekends. I'm aiming hard for 350-400 horsepower and at least 375 foot-pounds of torque when she reaches her final form. Starting from 240/280 with a supercharger and a tune that's extremely moderate to say the least, I think I have plenty of room to grow on. If you're interested in seeing this happen, follow me on Youtube at Fix It Up and/or CJBarker2, because I'm thinking that this will be happening, or at least starting, before the end of the year.

Thanks, guys!