2016 Mustang GT350
I think we should ask those not concerned with weight:
Have you ever driven a lightweight car to compare to heavy car?
I have- and its an amazing difference- just the difference in "feel" thru all tactile perceptors, such as your butt and hands on steering, the lack of inertia and the ability to easily adjust line...
I think its best to follow the common wizdom lighter is better, than find arguments how vehicle A or B despite the weight drives well.
TA Evos are down to 2700-2800lb
Porsche GT3 Cup Cars are down to 2600-2650lb
DSRs sports racers are down to 900-950lb with down force, which is why they can use GSXR1000 motor and turn laps 4 seconds faster than 991 GT3 Cup Cars- a car that is already unbelievably fast.
Drive a Caterham, or at least a MX-5 or Elise, to understand how much difference weight makes.
I know I am pounding the stick at noise, but since I have enjoyed lightweight, and have Evos, and have driven heavy cars, I account first hand for huge difference in all aspects of driving experience: conclusion, lighter is better.
Have you ever driven a lightweight car to compare to heavy car?
I have- and its an amazing difference- just the difference in "feel" thru all tactile perceptors, such as your butt and hands on steering, the lack of inertia and the ability to easily adjust line...
I think its best to follow the common wizdom lighter is better, than find arguments how vehicle A or B despite the weight drives well.
TA Evos are down to 2700-2800lb
Porsche GT3 Cup Cars are down to 2600-2650lb
DSRs sports racers are down to 900-950lb with down force, which is why they can use GSXR1000 motor and turn laps 4 seconds faster than 991 GT3 Cup Cars- a car that is already unbelievably fast.
Drive a Caterham, or at least a MX-5 or Elise, to understand how much difference weight makes.
I know I am pounding the stick at noise, but since I have enjoyed lightweight, and have Evos, and have driven heavy cars, I account first hand for huge difference in all aspects of driving experience: conclusion, lighter is better.
Complaining about a 3700lb mustang vs a 3300lb Evo is a bit silly..
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2007
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A delta of 400lbs between platforms is huge.
There's a reason Ford is putting carbon fiber wheels on the GT350R.
Considerable weight savings.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...sa-technology/
There's a reason Ford is putting carbon fiber wheels on the GT350R.
Considerable weight savings.
Calling them "the world's first mass-produced carbon fiber wheels," (Koenigsegg and aftermarket offerings notwithstanding) Ford says that the carbon fiber wheels weigh a mere 18 pounds each, compared to around 33 pounds for a comparable aluminum wheel. This, Ford claims, adds up to a 60-pound total reduction in unsprung weight, and a 40-percent drop in rotational inertia. As we learned at the car's debut, the carbon wheels measure 19 by 11 inches up front, with an extra half-inch of width out back, wrapped in hyper-sticky Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires with a unique tread compound and construction.
Last edited by golgo13; Oct 1, 2015 at 01:40 PM. Reason: added link & quote
as an owner of a s197 I disagree slightly. straight line its got enough power and enough brakes (with brembo's anyway) to not really feel its weight. but you can definitely feel the weight during hard cornering and/or corner exit
Not calling you a bench racer. Just looking for merit behind your complaints. I've driven prepared mustangs, and they really are excellent cars. The only they don't have is the AWD grip to propel them out of corners sans wheel spin. The extra few hundred pounds really goes unnoticed for the most part. They can fit bigger tires, bigger brakes (with more adequate cooling), and have a very long, smooth, torque curve from the bigger lump.
The one I've driven has full suspension mods. Boss rack, front arms with solid bushings etc. Full whiteline hard parts in the rear (watts link, upper and lower control arms, etc). Shocks/springs, and wheels and tires. The car was terrible stock. With the mods it is a great car. Except the gearbox. The getrag is an absolute turd..
I'm hounding on your weight complaints because you're writing it off as terrible car, and its not. I don't know what you're expecting out of pretty much full size 4 seat car...
Last edited by letsgetthisdone; Oct 1, 2015 at 01:59 PM.
My Evo 8 is 3080lb on scales:
Wet, with full interior.
(Missing spare wheel/tools and trunk carpet, nothing else)
My TME is lighter, feels much more nimble, however I have not documented it's weight yet.
Maybe only 70-100lb, but when I drive with passenger I feel it, so the less overhang more concentrated and lower mass makes TME noticeably more agile.
My Miata is pure pleasure to feel: just remove its 15x9 wheel and compare to Evo 17x9 or 18x10x5!
Than get into feather Caterham and it's another world.
Think of GP motorcycles, how they make them light to give ability to riders to flick.
Mustang GT350 is track car as GT3 and similar options including Z06.
As such it's 3700lb are inappropriate spec characteristic for an engineer and performance driver.
So it must be a more marketing compromise then technical choice.
Wet, with full interior.
(Missing spare wheel/tools and trunk carpet, nothing else)
My TME is lighter, feels much more nimble, however I have not documented it's weight yet.
Maybe only 70-100lb, but when I drive with passenger I feel it, so the less overhang more concentrated and lower mass makes TME noticeably more agile.
My Miata is pure pleasure to feel: just remove its 15x9 wheel and compare to Evo 17x9 or 18x10x5!
Than get into feather Caterham and it's another world.
Think of GP motorcycles, how they make them light to give ability to riders to flick.
Mustang GT350 is track car as GT3 and similar options including Z06.
As such it's 3700lb are inappropriate spec characteristic for an engineer and performance driver.
So it must be a more marketing compromise then technical choice.
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2007
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Likes: 29
From: @ a track near you
I edited my last post, but in case you didn't see:
I'm just not sure what you are all expecting out of a full size car with 4 seats, a big v8 and the drivetrain to go with it, etc...
I'm just not sure what you are all expecting out of a full size car with 4 seats, a big v8 and the drivetrain to go with it, etc...
A diet means means they either pull sound deadening and creature comforts, which will hurt sales to their target market. They'll never do that. We all know the target market for these cars are middle aged to retirement age men with plenty of money that want to go to cars and coffee on sunday morning and brag about their CF wheels and flat plane crankshaft. They may act like their marketed to the track rats, but they're really not..
The other way to save weight is to invest in exotic materials, which they can't/won't do either. The car gets a price point set by the bean counters before it even reaches the concept phase and the engineers do what they can. All while making the car pass ever more stringent safety and emissions laws, as well as meet reliability requirements set by Ford.
The other way to save weight is to invest in exotic materials, which they can't/won't do either. The car gets a price point set by the bean counters before it even reaches the concept phase and the engineers do what they can. All while making the car pass ever more stringent safety and emissions laws, as well as meet reliability requirements set by Ford.
The one I've driven has full suspension mods. Boss rack, front arms with solid bushings etc. Full whiteline hard parts in the rear (watts link, upper and lower control arms, etc). Shocks/springs, and wheels and tires. The car was terrible stock. With the mods it is a great car. Except the gearbox. The getrag is an absolute turd..
I'm hounding on your weight complaints because you're writing it off as terrible car, and its not. I don't know what you're expecting out of pretty much full size 4 seat car...
I'm hounding on your weight complaints because you're writing it off as terrible car, and its not. I don't know what you're expecting out of pretty much full size 4 seat car...
but like I said in the other post I quoted you, for a track car, the main detriment of a heavy car for me is cost of actually tracking the car. it goes through brakes and tires fast, especially a powerful car that will wanna spin the tires on every corner exit like the mustang
but then again, if you're buying a 60k+ car as a track car, maybe cost of consumables isn't a big deal...
i agree with the target market comment: it's not people that are planning to track the car on a regular basis. it's for older gents that want to have a "race car" without giving up the creature comforts.
"yeah. i have a GT350. it does 'this' and 'that'. have i done either of those things? well, no.. but it can, if i wanted. but look how shiny and loud she is".
those of us looking for serious track vehicles would obviously look elsewhere.
however, it would be a nice car to cruise around in and do an occasional HPDE.
"yeah. i have a GT350. it does 'this' and 'that'. have i done either of those things? well, no.. but it can, if i wanted. but look how shiny and loud she is".
those of us looking for serious track vehicles would obviously look elsewhere.
however, it would be a nice car to cruise around in and do an occasional HPDE.
Another shift that has been made is that the 2016 Camaro is under the GM Alpha platform. For those that are not aware of this, it currently underpins General Motor's compact to mid-size, front-engine, rear-wheel and four-wheel drives. The Platform basics include MacPherson struts on the front, 5 link independent rear, use of high strength steel and aluminum, plus a focus on reducing weight. - See more at: http://www.gospelherald.com/articles....I6xJw62c.dpuf
Chevy seems to have figured it out. When the Z28 trounces the GT350R around the track maybe Ford will too.
Chevy seems to have figured it out. When the Z28 trounces the GT350R around the track maybe Ford will too.
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,619
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From: @ a track near you
We all know the target market for these cars are middle aged to retirement age men with plenty of money that want to go to cars and coffee on sunday morning and brag about their CF wheels and flat plane crankshaft. They may act like their marketed to the track rats, but they're really not..
+1