Wanted to see how people brake at a road course. There were two techniques mentioned at a DE event i attended last month. One was the racing technique where you get on the brakes really hard and then back on the throttle prior to turn in (most common but not the fastest around the track). Second one is a limo driver technique where you apply the brakes and then hold them steady as you go thru the turn and then get on the throttle somewhere b/w the turn in point and the apex.

i use the first approach where i'm off the brakes prior to the turn in point. Can someone describe the 2nd technique in detail. I'm not sure how you do that where you can keep your foot on the brake and the throttle at the same time. Do you just use Left foot to brake the entire time and then just release the pressure and keep it constant while on the throttle turning in???

Second I need to learn how to heel toe...i really suck at it. Can someone describe how to do that and in what order. I'll venture a guess.

1) Right foot on the brake...braking hard
2. Clutch in with left foot, Downshift
3. Blip throttle with right foot and then lift left foot off the clutch (is it just lift or do u gradually let go off the clutch?) OR do u do this simultaneously?
4. Are you still on the brakes with the right foot or are you back on the throttle

For some reason I just can't get it right. Would be helpful if someone could tell me what i was doing wrong. even if I manage to do steps 3 and 4, I can't get my right foot properly positioned back on the throttle which makes me nervous for trying heel toe at the track when i'm driving the car at its limit. or if I'm on the brakes hard, blipping the throttle makes me ease off the brakes which results in me carrying way too much speed into the corner.

thanks for the help.

 

Are you asking about doing a heel/toe downshift during braking? You are supposed to brake and blip the throttle simultaneously when the speed you're at is appropriate for the lower gear.

 

Let me take a wild guess...youre a track noob? First things first, understand that you are in no way "driving your car at its limit." Youre driving at your limit, but not at the cars limit. Your car is capable of going much faster, so there is no way that youre going to be able to drive your cat at its limit as a noob.

As far as heel/toe, as already mentioned, youre basically rev-matching after you brake, to allow for a more smoother transition when down-shifting. So yah, you simply need to practice. Another thing, it sorta sounds to me that youre pushing yourself to go faster than you are currently capable. The key to being fast, besides a whole lota practice and what not, is to be smooth. It doesnt take a genius to figure that out. You cant be fast without being smooth...they go hand in hand. So best thing you can do is slow it down a bit and just work on being smooth and consistent...the speed will naturally follow in time.

 

This all seems so strange. Not your fault.. but it does. To call something the "racing technique" to me is strange because when racing, you use all kinds of techniques. Whatever works do it. Racing, because you have to deal with traffic MUST be fluid if you want to be up front. If you can't change when the situations needs then you are not going to be able to handle every situation, and will lose when someone can handle it better than you.

I will also say that finishing your braking before the corner, or at turn-in, can and often IS the fastest way. Bertil Roos racing school teaches it (the slowest part of the corner should be turn-in) and I drive that way, and the driver I coached last weekend does as well and his data traces were damn near perfect. (he has been racing for 30 years and has a half dozen SCCA championships, and probably 100 wins)

What's being described here is trail braking. I have never heard it as "limo driver technique" so count another check on the "strange" list. Trail braking is something many people do naturally, but can be very tricky. I do not teach it to novices because of the trickyness. (I teach the first way.. get your braking done in a straight line) Later after you have better car control (including braking/throttle) I will ease into trail braking.

Here it is, in detail. Brake at your braking point. Brake hard to turn-in. As you turn in, ease off the brakes a little but keep some pressure on them. What you are doing is keeping the weight on the front wheels so that you have more pressure and help them grip for better turning. (Same principle as downforce, but with weight transfer and not air) As you get to the center of the corner, come all the way off the brakes and go back to the throttle, feed as needed to kep the car on the track.

Trail braking works better in some corners and less in others.. also better with some cars than others. Experiment as needed.

Now.. here is where I am going to whine a little. It sounds as though you were at one of your first Drivers Education Events. As usual, people get taught too much too early. Things like trail braking and other advanced techniques are not day-one things unless the student is doing them naturally. I call it "hanging the curtains before the foundation is poured."

Day One (or more depending on how fast you get steady)
Braking Point: Where you go from throttle to brake before a corner.
Braking Zone: The area on the track you are braking/downshifting for the corner.
Turn-in Point: The point where you start turning for the corner. (off the brakes here)
Apex: The point you bring your car to the most inside of the corner. (Think F1/Roadrace guys where they hit the curb)
Track out point: WHere you unwind the wheel and come back to the outside of the track, back to full throttle here at latest.)

In general, the corner goes like this:
Brake to turn-in, steady throttle to apex and accelerate out. (steady might mean no throttle.. just be steady with whatever you do)

That's it. Practice practice practice. When you get those consistantly right, then start thinking about different things to try. Some people get it in 2-3 sessions, some people take days and days. It's harder than it sounds.

I will also kind of correct one of the other posters who said "you are not at the limit" very often you are at the limit, but also because when a driver starts out he/she is not steady, he/she goes right over the limit.. the key for novices (and really anyone.. read my USGP post from a couple weeks ago) is to creep up on the limit.

Think of it as a flight of stairs. You can get to the top, but if you try to jump from the bottom you might fall on your face when you get up there. Go up one step at a time, get steady, then add a little speed. Get steady, then add a little speed.. reeat till you are at the top of the "flight."

Again.. too much too soon. You are out there trying to figure out how to get into the corner and then they start telling you to play with your feet. Now.. not to say it isn't important, because it is and proper heel-toe can keep you from crashing. So it is something you should know.

First, the "why" of heel-toe.
When you have to shift down for a corner, chances are you're using a clutch and when you push it in your engine revs go down, but your wheel speed is up. When you let the clutch back out after selecting a gear, the shock can lock up your wheels. Locking up wheels isn't good, especially if you are setting up for a corner and turning-in. (see above when I suggest getting braking/shifting done in a straight line) anyway.. wheels lock up, that end slides. If it's a rwd car it can and does result in a spin.

So now that you know why.. the how.
Brake (right foot) clutch-in with left foot.
With some part of your foot other than the part needed for braking, blip the throttle as you put the shifter in the next gear. (This might be you heel, other side of the bottom, the side of your foot, if the pedals are far enough apart even your ankle.. the point is, get the throttle blipped to "rev match" and get the engine speed/wheel speed the same)
Let out on clutch.

Because you haven't trained yourself how hard to blip the throttle just the right amount, practice on the street. (yay, a racing-technique you can practice on the street) When you come to a red light, practice rowing down through the gears and blipping the throttle as you do each selection. You don't even have to let out on the clutch.. just practice your timing. When you are doing it naturally, THEN bring it to the track.

Warnings:
1) Don't do it when behind someone. If your foot slips you don't want to crash. Leave plenty of space if you are behind someone. (In fact, always leave space.. save your crashes for the track, much cooler to tell about hitting a guard rail than the little old lady in an Oldsmobile.)

2) You are going to be revving obviously.. ignore the ricer punk in the Civic with the Dodge Daytona wing vibrating on his trunk who thinks you want to race because you were perfecting a real technique.

Hope that helps,

 

I would listen to Jon K......great stuff there man.

 

I like the flight of stairs analogy.

Look forward to meeting you one day up at roebling, jon.

 

Jon,

Thanks for taking the time to explain everything. Finally got the car back from being in the shop for over 3 weeks after break-in so finally get to go back to the track and will be practicing the heel toe and the other suggestions.

To clarify a few things, i was in the advanced group when all these different techniques were mentioned. I usually run in intermediate so not a novice. Definitely a lot to learn but as Jon said it will come with practice. I like the way you explained heel toe as it clarifies it a lot. I usually am done with braking prior to turn in but wanted to try the trail braking technique but will save it for test and tune sessions before attempting it at DE events.

thanks again

 

you can brake however you want, do what works for you. everything is preference. there is no magic bullet.

 

trail braking is a tricky thing... depends a lot on the car setup and the track itself. I've used trail braking in my Nissan (FWD), the Evo and a WRX to help turn-in on tighter turns, but I've also tried it in a 240sx and a C6 vette and it just caused those cars to plow/understeer. Trail braking works pretty well in karts though

As with pretty much anything though, there's no one, simple, answer.