I've run +15 spacers on the same set of lug nuts and ARP extended studs for 2 years on super sticky Hoosiers with not a single problem. . . we torque to 95 ft#. . .

EVOlutionary

 

I had a similar experience with the same studs, same time period too. ARP's now.

 

I've had Racing Brake 14mm longer studs for a couple years. I use 15mm spacers with them and chose them over the ARPs because I can still use my closed end spline drive McGard lug nuts (good anti-theft and they look nice). They aren't nearly as durable as the ARPs that I have on my Camaro though. You need to be careful with them to make them last.

 

So a lot of people run them. They dont effect alignment. They can help the stagger.

So maybe I should consider some....

 

I run 18mm F and 4mm rear spacers so my RPF1s can clear the calipers. Initial turn-in is improved and I really like the way it feels overall with the spacers.

One thing to keep in mind though is that the spacers WILL affect the alignment, not much but, in this heavily contested class you need everything to be spot on.

 

Can you share how spacers will affect alignment?

From my understanding it will not affect alignment at all. It doesn't change the angle the wheel is canted in (camber), the angle the hubs are canted back (caster), or the difference between the spacing at the front of the wheels compared to the back of the wheels (toe). . .

The only thing it chages is what I think is called scrub, that is the difference between the center point of the tire and the center point of the spindle pivot . . .

 

I do all my own alignments (along with customer cars as well) and when I added the spacers I took measurements before and after. My toe was effected 1/32nd of an inch on either side, for a total of 1/16th!! Thats alot of toe change. I typcially run 1/8th total out on the front and 1/16th out in the rear so I needed to adjust my toe to bring it back where I wanted it.

Camber was only effected by .1 or .2 degrees negatively.

 

Earlier in this very thread I asked about the effects of widened front track on handling and got a little bit of info from Dave Mac. From what I understand, it's not so much that it affects alignment, especially static alignment, but rather roll center migration under cornering. I could have this completely mixed up though. If so, please explain.

 

I'm hoping to get some opinions on this setup before I go for it. I've done a decent amount of searching this thread and on threads about the parts I'm looking at, but want some STU specific opinions before I make a final decision.

Just so you know where I stand, this will be my second season of autocross. I did a dozen events in '08 and hope to do 20 or so in '09 and maybe some driving schools or HPDEs as well. This is my daily driver that I put 15k miles on a year as well. Here's what I'm thinking about doing:

245/40/17 Direzza Star Specs (I'm already decided on these 100%)
Bilstein HD struts
Swift SpecR springs
Whiteline front and rear sway bars
Camber bolts/plates ()
No power mods (Yes, seriously)

1) As I sit now, I just have an HKS intake from the prior owner and am running stock boost. The only other modification I have is Tanabe GF210 springs and I'm using Hawk HPS pads and will bleed the brakes and put in ATE Super Blue this spring. I'd be looking at about $2k for a decent set of coilovers which is money I'd rather put towards seat time. Do you think getting the Swift SpecR springs on the HD struts is worth the money over running my current springs on the HD struts?

2) I know a lot of people are up in the air on sway bars, but since I wont' be running coilovers, I think it will be helpful. The Whiteline front and rear sways seem to be a good deal from what I've read. Your thoughts?

3) Finally, since this is my daily driver, how do you suggest getting a good camber/alignment setup? Would I want to run more than the stock max (about -2) front camber on the streets? Is -3 ok if I rotate tires? Granted, I'd have to actually swap them on the wheels since they are directional. Is that worth the extra money and hassle for one degree of camber I'd only use a bit on the weekends? Probably not is my guess. Do you suggest setting max camber front and -1.5 rear with 0 toe all around for a good 'set it and forget it' street/autoX alignment?

As for the no power mods, the car is already plenty fast and, to me, I don't think I'd get nearly the amount of benefit for the dollar on power that I would on tires and suspension. I know there's a bunch of questions in there but any help is appreciated to get me set up and moderately competitive this year.

 

The suspension setup will work fine for local events and keep you sane for daily driving. Get the Swift springs, though, as they look to be a little stiffer in comparison to the Tanabes.

I'm not a big believer in a front sway bar on an Evo. You really probably do need one with a softie spring/shock combo, but I'm not sure the rear is big enough to make up for the increase in stiffness in the front. It would probably help the awful front geometry on the Evo, but I hate AWD cars that run huge front bars just for that reason - yes, I'm talking to you, Subaru drivers. Every Subaru I've driven with a big front bar just feels like complete crap, and I'm afraid that it would be the same on an Evo. I would say, start with just the rear bar, then add the front if you really feel you need it.

As for alignment, you should run -3 camber up front with 0 toe. One degree of camber makes a difference. The car is going to be pretty soft, so you'll need a lot of camber up front to make it stick. If you want a couple more miles out of the tires, do -2.5, but no less than that. As long as your toe is zero, you shouldn't have too much irregular tire wear (although you might have a little bit if you do a LOT of highway driving). Rear should probably be around -1 camber - it will rotate better than with -1.5.

And there's no shame in having no power mods. That's certainly what I'll be doing next season... damn you, budget! They are really just secondary after you get the suspension sorted the way you want it.

 

Thanks for the info. I know GTWorx sold the Swift spring/Bilstein HD strut/Whiteline rear sway package. I'll check if they still do. How do you recommend attaining -3 camber? Just go with camber bolts? I don't want to make it more expensive than it has to be.

 

If you really plan to spend alot of time autocrossing why not spend the money and buy what you really want once? Otherwise you'll get this compromise setup and end up selling the parts in a year or two. The coilovers will have camber plates too to get the alignment you want.

I wouldn't recommend camber bolts as they have a tendency to slip.

Also your sig says you are in CT. If you need a good setup/alignment shop let me know. There are several that will cater to your needs and give you what you want without hassle.

 

I know what you mean with the do it once and do it right approach, but I honestly can't find any coilovers to fit the bill. There seems to be quite a disparity between the $1k JIC/Megans and $2k and up Bilsteins/Ohlins. The PSS9s seemed to be right up my alley but I don't think anyone carries them anymore and I don't see the PSS10s out anywhere yet. Over $2k is out of my range. Anything out there in the market you suggest? KW V3s look like a good buy, although it appears they don't include camber plates.

And I'll definitely let you know when I'm ready to get it all set up and aligned. I'm in the Hartford area and ran with CART this past year but plan to run FCSCC a bunch next year, too.

 

delongdoug:

I pretty much built the car your talking about last year:

GtWorks Springs with the stock kyb gsr struts
Camber Plates -2.6/ 1/8 out up front)
Whiteline rear
Re01r

So basically that builds a car capable of a local top 10 pax. The car runs well in this config. With the rear bar at medium the car tripods and still rolls on the front till the spoiler touches around the course. This has been discussed ad nausea already.

I think you have one problem with your build. Your going to replace your struts. This means that your shopping list is going to be just roughing it in:

250 springs
400 for both bars
250 plates
+ struts which I am not sure of so lets say 700

= 1500 bucks before tires

I would save the 200 on the fsb, the 250 on the springs and the 700 on the struts (about 1150) . At best this will be a good daily driver and good autox car. It will not be great at either. You are still making compromises. The fsb will help with the tragic body roll but not enough. You will be stiff for sure, but you wont have great travel so your ride will be somewhat less and you may bounce. If you havent bought the bullet yet. I really think you need to look into either some Ohlins or KW variants to replace the above 3 parts. Otherwise you will just be ebaying the springs and struts next year.

Just get some advice on the on the right spring pressure so that you dont knock your teeth out on your daily.

You are obviously serious about competing.... why aim for second place when a few hundred bucks can make a huge difference. If this still doesnt do it for you: lets just say in the spring i am looking at buying CO's if I can afford the 2K price and selling my gtworks springs (which are awesome), and I won the local clubs season.

Good Luck!!!

 

Looks like CART is getting rid of STU altogether. Hopefully they don't, or I'll be stuck in BSP again for another year, undeservingly this time. Hello FCSCC.

http://www.cartct.com/board/viewtopi...er=asc&start=0