At this level you need the ability to really data log IMO, the stock Ecu severally lacks that ability in the application you're trying to use it.

 

Sorry to hear about that Warren.

 

My insatiable "need to know why" overcame my "loathing and disdain" for this vehicle...

I have been slowly taking the car apart and was able to pull the engine. So far two smoking guns but nothing definitive:

1) Seized oil pump ( lots of scouring on the journals)
2) Two failed 2150cc Injectors.

I will say this FIC is a stand up shop, buy from them because they are the people who support the racers and are not out to only just make a dollar.


( number 1 is on the left of picture)
there is extreme whiping of the bearings: IMO only an oil pump can do this.

I pulled the main girdle off yesterday, the mains look to be in great shape when compared to the rods. This is definitely an indication of oil starvation.. as the rods will receive oiling last.



With that being said, there are a couple of things that I will investigate furthur.

Sharing so others can maybe learn from the failure, as I always say ....." Experience is something that you get, when you don't get what you want"

 

Damn Warren just read up on the latest since the shootout and really BUMMED to hear/see about those bearings......they all look pretty torched (#4 farthest to the right looks like it got the least of the beating )

 

How old is that pump? I change mine every time the engine is out, which is usually 2 seasons. I didn't notice any wear on my last one but I've seen enough fail
So I do it as a precaution. I noticed wear on my ams modified pump with a race shaft on my old 2.0 around 10k miles. so now I just run a stub shaft and replace them based on mileage/passes.


The last FIC 2150 I bought were brand new and faulty. I damaged a piston because of it (it's still damaged and lasted 2 seasons in the 150 trap range). I was able to see the difference in the spark plugs and thats what led me to having them tested. I sent it back and they replaced it at no charge and even inspected the other 3 for me. Their customer service has been great to me.

Good luck with everything warren and keep us posted if you find anything else.

 

Its part of racing patrick. The picture is deceiving, but the number 4 rod bearing no longer has any cooper left on it, which is why it looks like its untouched . It is indeed the worst of the bunch. This to me is oil starvation. If you look at the mains, they look pretty worn as well for a motor that has less than 300 miles. This would indicate that there is oil starvation during normal operation, which then just gets worse during a loading event.

p.s I am glad to see that you are keeping your car.

Thanks Matt. I just checked my spreadsheet, that I keep for all my engine failures. The oil pump had 1300 miles, inclusive of this failure. The radial side clearances were on the tighter end of the OE specifications. I have made a habit of checking this everytime the motor is apart and replace if I see any signs of scuffing, out of spec or "polishing" on the gear contact surfaces.

Oil Pump Radial Clearance prior to install
Driven Gear 0.0025-0.0030
Drive Gear 0.0031-0.0035
the reason there is a range, is because that was the limit of my feeler gages.

Here is what I think is happening, my baffled oil pan, is empting faster than oil can get back into it, i.e the oil pick up is sucking in air during a pull and even though I have a crank scrapper, the rate at which the thick 20w50 returns to the cup ( section around pick up) is slower than what the pump actually draws in.

Hence oil starvation during a pull, but generally ok on the street)


Thats my theory anyway.

 

I've seen a few pumps fail, enough that it makes me uncomfortable sometimes

Frontline Fab is suppose to be making a ball bearing, custom gear, billet housing pump for what I consider a pretty reasonable estimated price.. especially if it's proves to be far superior

 

Just re-looked at those bearing and holy crap man i was totally wrong!

I was going to pose the same theory and was going to ask if you had things like a baffled pan, scraper, hla, etc to keep all that oil at the pick-up as i had a buddy that never had issues on the street but when he launched the car at the track it would eat itself up

Got me really thinking about upgrading my pan as i have the scraper and hla already.

BTW just took a look at all the Frontline Fab products on FB and wow that stuff looks well machined but i'm no expert!

 

Yup I have the baffled pan, hla regulator and scrapper. If you upgrade your pan just build one that holds more oil than anything else.

A few years ago, I had done a spreadsheet/exercise in calculating overhang load on the shaft of the oil pump, without going into momentum swings ( due to timing belt flex ) and tension from big cam shafts) , I found that at 10,000 rpm the tip speed of the drive gear was 73mph and the driven gear had a tip speed of 78 mph . The corresponding overhang load on the large pump shaft was 31 ibs and 42 ibs on the small shaft. Thats is f#$king huge, I am sure if calculating load inclusive of upper valvetrain, the load value on those small shafts would be even more.

The reason I saying this is, FF is placing bearings in there, to spread the load out , versus just using only OIL film strength inbetween the shaft and aluminum housing. Now will that fix the problem if your pick up comes unsubmerged ? Absolutely not! but it will help your motor live for a little longer , if that was to happen.

For a wealthy californian man, a dry sump should be your only choice on the menu, and you can get it "A LA CARTE"

w

 

Always kickin down that knowledge that's what i appreciate here even though a lot of it goes above my comprehension since my background is in cross sectional human anatomy

I do understand what you explained w/ the math though and understand why FF is developing their product and maybe you can explain a little more but was/is this a more common problem with the DSM vs. Evos?

.......and too bad i don't meet the definiton above.....just an average californian man with a very very expensive hobby

Dry sump, methanol motor, ghost shifter........can someone wake me up i think i'm drooling on my pillow case

 

How much oil do you keep in your oil pan I always over fill mine because I had the exact same problem it i went through like 5 motors from oil starvation but always kept oil in the pan. I am at least thinking about extending my oil pan just like the red demon car from boostin performance. I am scared to lose another motor.

 

whoops I didn't see this, I over fill to 5 quarts , sometimes a little more.

 

Winter time, so its project time...

I am starting my oil pan project and this is as far as I got


Hopefully when I have a few minutes to breathe, I can get to work on this guy. Basically I am going to add about 2 inches of depth to the oil pan, in an effort to increase my oil capacity and reduce the possibilty of air getting sucked into the oil pump. The oil pick up will also have to be modified, a rather easy project but time consuming non the less. More to come on this project shortly.

In other news, the short block is at the machine shop getting prepped for next season.

 

I have had a few hours over the holiday to work on my oil pan project, how can such a simple project, take up so much time ?

Here is the picture montage that most of you, who subscribe to this are used to.

First started of by cutting some 1.5 inch width strips , shapping and tacking to the pan


a shot showing the difference in elevation with the pan attached


I also added a little swiss cheesed diffuser plate to promote a slower rate of flow of oil as if moves by the pick up




and the oil pan finished up-- a little clean up and leakage testing, then it will be off to the powdercoaters





Now a little extra badd assnesss in billet ofcourse






next up is the modify the pick up itself.. later

 

TRE pieces are nice! Oil pan makes me nervous! haha, how much ground clearance will you have once installed? Will you have to raise the car up a little? And how much more oil will that hold, 1-1.5 qts?