New Forum Rules
First off, thank you for re-opening this thread. I don't mean to turn this into a mod bashfest and I appreciate getting the chance to post my thoughts.
Here's what I had put together this morning (in response to some of the original posts in this thread):
By your responses, you've pretty much proven my point about selective enforcement and unclear rules. The fact that the rules have been in place for a while now and that both I and others had no idea they existed pretty much validates my points, no? The only reason I gleaned the new rule set was because of a disagreement with Noize in the Evo X forums, which I feel are over moderated. I especially take offense when alleged OT posts are removed, yet stuff like "you got PM" and "subscribed" and sarcastic one liners are allowed to remain ... all of which fall under post whoring, IMO. Ironically, the moderation of the Evo X forums is actually the closest to really enforcing the forum rules (demerit assignments notwithstanding). Let's face it, if the admins and moderators really were to enforce the forum rules by the letter, a significant percentage of us would be banned on a regular basis, and that doesn't sound like a reasonable system to me. Furthermore, some of the more entertaining posts tend to be OT, and I'd rather have the chance to occassionally laugh out loud than read purely informational posts. IMO that's what FAQs and stickied threads are for.
In regards to mods having opinions. IMO, if you're going to take the job of moderating, your opinions need to take a back seat to the job at hand. As I stated in my original post, I have great respect for some of the admins. I know it's not an easy job ... I have moderated forums before and it's a thankless job ... I just have to go on one of the over-moderation rants once a year or so.
As far as conflict of interest, I'm not talking about monetary conflict of interest as much as fanboi conflict of interest. Hence my opinion that forums should be moderated by someone who does not own the automobile that is the topic of discussion.
So now that I've rambled on for a while, let me get to the point and make two suggestions:
1.) Please revisit the forum rules, or at least clarify them somewhat. They are clearly not enforced as they are currently written, nor are they reasonably enforcable if we want to continue to have a free-flow of information on these forums.
2.) Ease up on the Evo X forum moderation. It's a new car, new engine - new and old shops are vying for attention ...yeah it's going to be chaotic for a while, but IMO going overboard on the thread cleansing leads to boring threads. I don't know about anyone else, but I look at these forums as a community, a communication medium rather than just purely a data storehouse.
l8r)
Markus
Here's what I had put together this morning (in response to some of the original posts in this thread):
By your responses, you've pretty much proven my point about selective enforcement and unclear rules. The fact that the rules have been in place for a while now and that both I and others had no idea they existed pretty much validates my points, no? The only reason I gleaned the new rule set was because of a disagreement with Noize in the Evo X forums, which I feel are over moderated. I especially take offense when alleged OT posts are removed, yet stuff like "you got PM" and "subscribed" and sarcastic one liners are allowed to remain ... all of which fall under post whoring, IMO. Ironically, the moderation of the Evo X forums is actually the closest to really enforcing the forum rules (demerit assignments notwithstanding). Let's face it, if the admins and moderators really were to enforce the forum rules by the letter, a significant percentage of us would be banned on a regular basis, and that doesn't sound like a reasonable system to me. Furthermore, some of the more entertaining posts tend to be OT, and I'd rather have the chance to occassionally laugh out loud than read purely informational posts. IMO that's what FAQs and stickied threads are for.
In regards to mods having opinions. IMO, if you're going to take the job of moderating, your opinions need to take a back seat to the job at hand. As I stated in my original post, I have great respect for some of the admins. I know it's not an easy job ... I have moderated forums before and it's a thankless job ... I just have to go on one of the over-moderation rants once a year or so.
As far as conflict of interest, I'm not talking about monetary conflict of interest as much as fanboi conflict of interest. Hence my opinion that forums should be moderated by someone who does not own the automobile that is the topic of discussion.
So now that I've rambled on for a while, let me get to the point and make two suggestions:
1.) Please revisit the forum rules, or at least clarify them somewhat. They are clearly not enforced as they are currently written, nor are they reasonably enforcable if we want to continue to have a free-flow of information on these forums.
2.) Ease up on the Evo X forum moderation. It's a new car, new engine - new and old shops are vying for attention ...yeah it's going to be chaotic for a while, but IMO going overboard on the thread cleansing leads to boring threads. I don't know about anyone else, but I look at these forums as a community, a communication medium rather than just purely a data storehouse.
l8r)
Markus
"You got PM" in a vendor thread is not off topic. Its likely a request for a purchase or for more product information. I can't think of anything that is more on topic.
Look around X General and X Engine, Turbo, Drivetrain and tell me there is not a problem with IX and X comparisons that cause the 4B11 tech to be buried.
Moderating a forum has nothing to do with your like or dis-like of the topics being discussed. Being a moderator is about keeping **** links off the pages, making sure people dont get too out of control, and cleaning up garbage posts. This can all be done regardless of the like or dislike of the topic being discussed.
As long as the community owners are clear about their intentions, ensure all users are well informed of the rules, and apply those rules equally across all topics, then the mod is doing his/her job. However, if it can be proven that a mod is mis-using his/her powers to re-enforce the mods opinions / beliefs / or otherwise of the mod, then its problematic.
Although sometimes it feels like this occurs in Vendors favors, I think the mods here do a good job of staying out of the way.
As long as the community owners are clear about their intentions, ensure all users are well informed of the rules, and apply those rules equally across all topics, then the mod is doing his/her job. However, if it can be proven that a mod is mis-using his/her powers to re-enforce the mods opinions / beliefs / or otherwise of the mod, then its problematic.
Although sometimes it feels like this occurs in Vendors favors, I think the mods here do a good job of staying out of the way.
Moderating a forum has nothing to do with your like or dis-like of the topics being discussed. Being a moderator is about keeping **** links off the pages, making sure people dont get too out of control, and cleaning up garbage posts. This can all be done regardless of the like or dislike of the topic being discussed.
As long as the community owners are clear about their intentions, ensure all users are well informed of the rules, and apply those rules equally across all topics, then the mod is doing his/her job. However, if it can be proven that a mod is mis-using his/her powers to re-enforce the mods opinions / beliefs / or otherwise of the mod, then its problematic.
Although sometimes it feels like this occurs in Vendors favors, I think the mods here do a good job of staying out of the way.
As long as the community owners are clear about their intentions, ensure all users are well informed of the rules, and apply those rules equally across all topics, then the mod is doing his/her job. However, if it can be proven that a mod is mis-using his/her powers to re-enforce the mods opinions / beliefs / or otherwise of the mod, then its problematic.
Although sometimes it feels like this occurs in Vendors favors, I think the mods here do a good job of staying out of the way.
I personally think the "overmoderation" in the X forums is just fine. As someone who's interested in getting an X, I hate it when I try to read informational threads only to read tons of posts from people who have little information or are spreading bad rumors and lies because they just hate the X. On top of that are the people who just hate the X for whatever reason and feel the compelling urge to post so in every thread they run across. Why??
OK, we get it, you don't like the X. Why muddle up the forums dedicated to the X with your ill will and hate when everyone else is just trying to get info, specs, whatever? For people who can not stand the X, they sure hang out in the dedicated forums for it a lot. I understand the human desire to "fit in" and to resist change and progress, but give us a break, we don't need the vitrol and maliciousness.
Yes, opinions are necessary. Feelings are necessary. But crapping on every thread about the X just because it doesn't suit your fancy is totally unnecessary.
- Patrick
OK, we get it, you don't like the X. Why muddle up the forums dedicated to the X with your ill will and hate when everyone else is just trying to get info, specs, whatever? For people who can not stand the X, they sure hang out in the dedicated forums for it a lot. I understand the human desire to "fit in" and to resist change and progress, but give us a break, we don't need the vitrol and maliciousness.
Yes, opinions are necessary. Feelings are necessary. But crapping on every thread about the X just because it doesn't suit your fancy is totally unnecessary.
- Patrick
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I'll try and address your issues.
1. Just because don't know the rules doesn't speak poorly of the rules or the people the enforce them. There were announcements regarding the rules, most of the mods carry a link to the rules in their sig and when you sign up, you are instructed to read them but people don't. Is that our fault?
1. Just because don't know the rules doesn't speak poorly of the rules or the people the enforce them. There were announcements regarding the rules, most of the mods carry a link to the rules in their sig and when you sign up, you are instructed to read them but people don't. Is that our fault?
2. I will agree that moderating is not completely objective, personal preferences and opinions do come into play but usually it's pretty clear what's off-topic and what's just under the line. A post like 'subscribed" may not contribute but it's done because the poster wants to keep track of the thread.
3. We do enforce the rules rather consistently and most members have decided to actually follow them and have thus remained.
4. Why should moderators give up their opinions to do a thankless, payless and usually unacknowledged/overly criticized job?
l8r)
Well put. And though I can see as how you or there members would have that viewpoint about the vendors, rest assured, we are not biased towards or against them, just trying to keep it fair. In the case of business, useless negative remarks are more damaging, so they are more likely to be reported and then deleted. We can only see what we come across or gets reported
I respect the new methods for handling disagreements, though it is odd that you guys act as arbiters (no not the Halo ones
) for this. Does the staff agree that once several complaints are registered against a vendor then they should be removed, regardless of the following? I find nothing more frustrating then seeing a vendor that has done a massive disservice to several people still able to do business on a community. Even if that disservice is only %10 of the people, you just ensure a long standing issue / feud and more people get added to that "I hate vendor X" list. Which means you guys have to edit more posts, deal with more "I hate the rules" posts etc.And no, I am not posting this in the sense that I have a problem with a vendor. I am only sharing what I have seen several times.
Thanks,
Chris
Some members don't read their PMs or don't have that feature activated so it's actually impossible to completely inform all members.
How are the rules not consistent? I don't see how the enforcement can be consistent but the rules inconsistent, that confuses me.
I disagree with that last part, I think moderators are entitled to their opinions and have every right to express as any other member. What's important is that they don't take sides in moderating. I've dished out points to people who were saying things I agreed with but in a horrible fashion just as I've stayed away from people who were off there rockers.
How are the rules not consistent? I don't see how the enforcement can be consistent but the rules inconsistent, that confuses me.
I disagree with that last part, I think moderators are entitled to their opinions and have every right to express as any other member. What's important is that they don't take sides in moderating. I've dished out points to people who were saying things I agreed with but in a horrible fashion just as I've stayed away from people who were off there rockers.
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Look around X General and X Engine, Turbo, Drivetrain and tell me there is not a problem with IX and X comparisons that cause the 4B11 tech to be buried.
l8r)
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1.) Posting off topic items within a thread or causing a thread to go off topic = 2
How many people, on a daily basis, post OT comments? Lots, myself included, although I try to fly the OT flag if I do
I don't see a whole lot of points being accumulated throughout the site for this. So, the enforcemnt is consistent (i.e. it rarely gets enforced), but it is not consistent with the rule.2.) Dodging The Swear Filter = 5
Ditto to comment 1. This happens fairly frequently ... i.e., ( used instead of c, etc. Personally I think this rule is silly, since by the time most kids can read, they can well guess what's being filtered. The only thing that filtering really accomplishes is that it allows pages to make it past corporate web content filters, which is a good thing for this site.
3.) Breaking any forum rule not mentioned here = 5
...
In my experience, anytime you attempt to implement a mathematically based system for tracking infractions, you're going to have to have very concise definitions for each category. Apart from the enforcement, this is the other main concern that I have with the current system.
l8r)
Last edited by Ludikraut; Feb 7, 2008 at 01:27 PM.
3.) Breaking any forum rule not mentioned here = 5
...
In my experience, anytime you attempt to implement a mathematically based system for tracking infractions, you're going to have to have very concise definitions for each category. Apart from the enforcement, this is the other main concern that I have with the current system.
l8r)
...
In my experience, anytime you attempt to implement a mathematically based system for tracking infractions, you're going to have to have very concise definitions for each category. Apart from the enforcement, this is the other main concern that I have with the current system.
l8r)
Did you edit that to say ... or some one edit it for you?
Thats a fair post. We do rarely enforce the OT infraction. We also do not always enforce the dodging swear filter infraction. They are both enforced based on the severity if the incident. When someone dodges the swear filter make a complete swear appear, they will get the infraction, assuming we see it. As for OT , its generally used for malicious or repeated OT posts. So its not that we are be inconsistent, its that we are being lenient. Think of it like speeding. Chances are if you are going 2mph over, you are not getting a ticket. At 8mph, maybe you get a warning. 20mph over however, and you are likely to get the ticket. It should also be mentioned that you are making comments about how often we enforce the rules, but at the same time, you cannot see the infractions, only what we delete that you notice. We also do not delete every post to get an infraction or warning.
However, other infractions are more serious be nature than others and have a tendancy to get points or at least a warning every time. You post a racist remark, there is not differencing levels, your getting an infraction.
The any rule not mentioned is a catch all and rarely used. This is again generally only used for more severe cases. We have a number of rules and making an individual infraction for each is not generally required. Because so many are rarely ever broken.
But in the end, we are not perfect and rules will not be enforced absolutely perfectly every time just as in the real world with laws which is why the staff will review anything you feel was injust
However, other infractions are more serious be nature than others and have a tendancy to get points or at least a warning every time. You post a racist remark, there is not differencing levels, your getting an infraction.
The any rule not mentioned is a catch all and rarely used. This is again generally only used for more severe cases. We have a number of rules and making an individual infraction for each is not generally required. Because so many are rarely ever broken.
But in the end, we are not perfect and rules will not be enforced absolutely perfectly every time just as in the real world with laws which is why the staff will review anything you feel was injust
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Thread Starter
Evolved Member
iTrader: (17)
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,224
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From: 41° 59' N, 87° 54' W
Thats a fair post. We do rarely enforce the OT infraction. We also do not always enforce the dodging swear filter infraction. They are both enforced based on the severity if the incident. When someone dodges the swear filter make a complete swear appear, they will get the infraction, assuming we see it. As for OT , its generally used for malicious or repeated OT posts. So its not that we are be inconsistent, its that we are being lenient. Think of it like speeding. Chances are if you are going 2mph over, you are not getting a ticket. At 8mph, maybe you get a warning. 20mph over however, and you are likely to get the ticket. It should also be mentioned that you are making comments about how often we enforce the rules, but at the same time, you cannot see the infractions, only what we delete that you notice. We also do not delete every post to get an infraction or warning.
However, other infractions are more serious be nature than others and have a tendancy to get points or at least a warning every time. You post a racist remark, there is not differencing levels, your getting an infraction.
The any rule not mentioned is a catch all and rarely used. This is again generally only used for more severe cases. We have a number of rules and making an individual infraction for each is not generally required. Because so many are rarely ever broken.
But in the end, we are not perfect and rules will not be enforced absolutely perfectly every time just as in the real world with laws which is why the staff will review anything you feel was injust
However, other infractions are more serious be nature than others and have a tendancy to get points or at least a warning every time. You post a racist remark, there is not differencing levels, your getting an infraction.
The any rule not mentioned is a catch all and rarely used. This is again generally only used for more severe cases. We have a number of rules and making an individual infraction for each is not generally required. Because so many are rarely ever broken.
But in the end, we are not perfect and rules will not be enforced absolutely perfectly every time just as in the real world with laws which is why the staff will review anything you feel was injust
Anyways, I think I've taken up enough of everyone's time. Back to work!!!
l8r)