Houston Tuning Session!!!
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
BTW - HOW was it possible to be pulling timing on RACE GAS that has a higher octane ? Usually pulling timing means there is knock activity.
Also, 50 whp variation between the two competing flashes is virtualy impossible unless my flash was making less whp than stock.
A stock evo makes about 240 to the wheels on the average
Add an intake, MBC and Exhuast and your making 265 - 275 WITHOUT ANY TUNING OR FLASH
Even a weak *** base flash will get you 280 - 285 to the wheels - this is all pure mathematics and physics through leaner than stock a/f ratio and more timing
On a car without cams - the best flash you can imagine in the history of the world done by a master flasher could maybe get you to 317 whp - 320 MAX on pump gas. Most flashes would yield about 300 - which is what you seem to have gotten.
Somehow your numbers dont make sesne to me.
BUT - I can tell you that if you took the time to post the dyno sheets with a/f ratio and you logged your OBDII ign timing numbers you are pulling then we could start to make heads or tails of what is going on and discover more about where the missing whp is comming from.
Also, 50 whp variation between the two competing flashes is virtualy impossible unless my flash was making less whp than stock.
A stock evo makes about 240 to the wheels on the average
Add an intake, MBC and Exhuast and your making 265 - 275 WITHOUT ANY TUNING OR FLASH
Even a weak *** base flash will get you 280 - 285 to the wheels - this is all pure mathematics and physics through leaner than stock a/f ratio and more timing
On a car without cams - the best flash you can imagine in the history of the world done by a master flasher could maybe get you to 317 whp - 320 MAX on pump gas. Most flashes would yield about 300 - which is what you seem to have gotten.
Somehow your numbers dont make sesne to me.
BUT - I can tell you that if you took the time to post the dyno sheets with a/f ratio and you logged your OBDII ign timing numbers you are pulling then we could start to make heads or tails of what is going on and discover more about where the missing whp is comming from.
Like I said, I was pulling timing and it was due to my boost levels being too high as my boost gauge may be off. I had it installed for 12 dollars.
Anyways, I was NOT pulling timing on race gas (one pull and it was mixed with pump gas, too) and I made more power each pull that I turned down the boost (all pump gas - race gas mix was last pull). I am really sorry but I do not have something to post at this point. The place that we did the dynos at recently closed its doors and I can't call for reprints. I am sorry for that. Also, all your dyno numbers are dependent on the dyno. On the dyno we used 03 Evos were dynoing 218, not 240 so your flash did do some good over stock. Just not as good as everyone else can get.
Last edited by EVOTEXAS; Nov 17, 2004 at 03:20 PM.
Originally Posted by EVOTEXAS
Nice of you to summarize!
So my summary to this thread would be that if you are not concerned about the last 20-50 HP available, Dynoflash should be in your option list for a flash as long as you believe that 11:1 AF ratio is as risky as you want to take it.
If you are ok with high 11's AF which I think is very safe on 93 octane, and want that extra 3-5 car lengths in the quarter mile, couple seconds on the road course, or the extra boost of power on the street, while having lower injector duty cycles, maybe something else should be considered (TurboTrix, IMO). I know Mark is probably not going to chime in here to keep the tuner wars to a minimum so take that with a grain of salt since he might run 10:1 AF for all I know.
Either way, all I wanted was to express my opinion, my story to people in the market for a flash so they can make a decision based not only on "tuner advertisements," which are only so valid, as well as hard user experience, good and bad.
And that is just addressing the product. The persona is a whole different ball game. However, I'm tapped out at this point and don't want to bite into that. Peace.
So my summary to this thread would be that if you are not concerned about the last 20-50 HP available, Dynoflash should be in your option list for a flash as long as you believe that 11:1 AF ratio is as risky as you want to take it.
If you are ok with high 11's AF which I think is very safe on 93 octane, and want that extra 3-5 car lengths in the quarter mile, couple seconds on the road course, or the extra boost of power on the street, while having lower injector duty cycles, maybe something else should be considered (TurboTrix, IMO). I know Mark is probably not going to chime in here to keep the tuner wars to a minimum so take that with a grain of salt since he might run 10:1 AF for all I know.
Either way, all I wanted was to express my opinion, my story to people in the market for a flash so they can make a decision based not only on "tuner advertisements," which are only so valid, as well as hard user experience, good and bad.
And that is just addressing the product. The persona is a whole different ball game. However, I'm tapped out at this point and don't want to bite into that. Peace.
The only product which is generally a bit weaker is the through the mail flash which is about 10 - 15 whp weaker than the fully custom tuned version - on the average.
The whp claims which I make are backed up by the 10 plus customers of mine which have run 11.99 or better in the 1/4 mile with my flash. Dyno sheets , 1/4 mile times and data are what I base our power levels on.
Finally - although you may be confortable with lean a/f ratios - your ecu is not and IF you want to escape what you desicribe as "pulling timing" for anything longer than one or two dyno pulls youw ill need to go richer on your a/f's - period.
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
To assert that the Dyno Flash is a product which makes 20 - 50 whp less than other tuning products is totally false. In fact - in mopst cases my custom tune flashes make more whp than the custom tuned flashes of other tuners. I will post up a few of my so called "case study" dyno sheets later which proved that my richer and safer tuning yielded more whp.
The only product which is generally a bit weaker is the through the mail flash which is about 10 - 15 whp weaker than the fully custom tuned version - on the average.
The whp claims which I make are backed up by the 10 plus customers of mine which have run 11.99 or better in the 1/4 mile with my flash. Dyno sheets , 1/4 mile times and data are what I base our power levels on.
Finally - although you may be confortable with lean a/f ratios - your ecu is not and IF you want to escape what you desicribe as "pulling timing" for anything longer than one or two dyno pulls youw ill need to go richer on your a/f's - period.
The only product which is generally a bit weaker is the through the mail flash which is about 10 - 15 whp weaker than the fully custom tuned version - on the average.
The whp claims which I make are backed up by the 10 plus customers of mine which have run 11.99 or better in the 1/4 mile with my flash. Dyno sheets , 1/4 mile times and data are what I base our power levels on.
Finally - although you may be confortable with lean a/f ratios - your ecu is not and IF you want to escape what you desicribe as "pulling timing" for anything longer than one or two dyno pulls youw ill need to go richer on your a/f's - period.
Al...
lets not get into any case study BS... i have plenty of those at the shop. I suggest we end this thread as i can see it getting out of hand. I'll leave it at that .. Post up in the dynoflash forum. I've kept my mouth shut , we def dont want a flame war, cause it will get ugly. For everyone in houston, i will see you in dec..
Mark
turbotrix
ok Al -
I got a custom tune from you that day. I have almost identical mods to EVOTEXAS with the full 3" turbo back exhaust, intake, boost controller set at 20.5-21psi. When we had a dyno day when EVOTEXAS did his 308whp, I dynoed immediatly before him. I had not changed a thing on my car since you had tuned it.
We dynoed, me going first and I put down 276whp. EVOTEXAS immediatly followed so weather and dynometer could not be a factor.. It was down to the difference in tunes. Al's custom street-tuned flash vs. a mail-in Turbo Trix flash. Even with pulling timing, EVOTEXAS still put down 20hp more than me at the wheels.
I got a custom tune from you that day. I have almost identical mods to EVOTEXAS with the full 3" turbo back exhaust, intake, boost controller set at 20.5-21psi. When we had a dyno day when EVOTEXAS did his 308whp, I dynoed immediatly before him. I had not changed a thing on my car since you had tuned it.
We dynoed, me going first and I put down 276whp. EVOTEXAS immediatly followed so weather and dynometer could not be a factor.. It was down to the difference in tunes. Al's custom street-tuned flash vs. a mail-in Turbo Trix flash. Even with pulling timing, EVOTEXAS still put down 20hp more than me at the wheels.
Originally Posted by Monkey
ok Al -
I got a custom tune from you that day. I have almost identical mods to EVOTEXAS with the full 3" turbo back exhaust, intake, boost controller set at 20.5-21psi. When we had a dyno day when EVOTEXAS did his 308whp, I dynoed immediatly before him. I had not changed a thing on my car since you had tuned it.
We dynoed, me going first and I put down 276whp. EVOTEXAS immediatly followed so weather and dynometer could not be a factor.. It was down to the difference in tunes. Al's custom street-tuned flash vs. a mail-in Turbo Trix flash. Even with pulling timing, EVOTEXAS still put down 20hp more than me at the wheels.
I got a custom tune from you that day. I have almost identical mods to EVOTEXAS with the full 3" turbo back exhaust, intake, boost controller set at 20.5-21psi. When we had a dyno day when EVOTEXAS did his 308whp, I dynoed immediatly before him. I had not changed a thing on my car since you had tuned it.
We dynoed, me going first and I put down 276whp. EVOTEXAS immediatly followed so weather and dynometer could not be a factor.. It was down to the difference in tunes. Al's custom street-tuned flash vs. a mail-in Turbo Trix flash. Even with pulling timing, EVOTEXAS still put down 20hp more than me at the wheels.
His car had race gas and more boost - AND - he has a different car
276 on a mustang dyno with pump gas and 20.5 psi is about right for your mods - its a low reading dyno
Originally Posted by TurbotrixRacing
Al...
lets not get into any case study BS... i have plenty of those at the shop. I suggest we end this thread as i can see it getting out of hand. I'll leave it at that .. Post up in the dynoflash forum. I've kept my mouth shut , we def dont want a flame war, cause it will get ugly. For everyone in houston, i will see you in dec..
Mark
turbotrix
lets not get into any case study BS... i have plenty of those at the shop. I suggest we end this thread as i can see it getting out of hand. I'll leave it at that .. Post up in the dynoflash forum. I've kept my mouth shut , we def dont want a flame war, cause it will get ugly. For everyone in houston, i will see you in dec..
Mark
turbotrix
No more case studies - those that are interested can come to my forums !
Peace !
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
The shape of the curve and amount of detonation is the key. I dont care how much power he was making - his ecu was pulling timing as he admitted - not safe or optimal.
His car had race gas and more boost - AND - he has a different car
276 on a mustang dyno with pump gas and 20.5 psi is about right for your mods - its a low reading dyno
His car had race gas and more boost - AND - he has a different car
276 on a mustang dyno with pump gas and 20.5 psi is about right for your mods - its a low reading dyno
The second to last pull I made 296. That is 20 more AWHP with less boost, no race gas.
I made 3X more HP with some race gas added in and even less boost yet. Don't distort the facts. This is part of the problem most people have with you, Al.
276 on a Mustang dyno might be right for YOUR tune but it is not for other tuners.
There is no doubt that you got it handled compared with a stock tune. Past that, many doubts exist.
edit: And as a final thought to this post, please do not forget to include that we are talking about my blindly tuned mail in TT flash vs your custom in-car tune on Monkeys car.
Last edited by EVOTEXAS; Nov 18, 2004 at 08:54 AM.
Originally Posted by EVOTEXAS
I did NOT have more boost. I had LESS than 20 psi for the last two pulls. I did NOT have race gas until the LAST pull.
The second to last pull I made 296. That is 20 more AWHP with less boost, no race gas.
I made 3X more HP with some race gas added in and even less boost yet. Don't distort the facts. This is part of the problem most people have with you, Al.
276 on a Mustang dyno might be right for YOUR tune but it is not for other tuners.
There is no doubt that you got it handled compared with a stock tune. Past that, many doubts exist.
edit: And as a final thought to this post, please do not forget to include that we are talking about my blindly tuned mail in TT flash vs your custom in-car tune on Monkeys car.
The second to last pull I made 296. That is 20 more AWHP with less boost, no race gas.
I made 3X more HP with some race gas added in and even less boost yet. Don't distort the facts. This is part of the problem most people have with you, Al.
276 on a Mustang dyno might be right for YOUR tune but it is not for other tuners.
There is no doubt that you got it handled compared with a stock tune. Past that, many doubts exist.
edit: And as a final thought to this post, please do not forget to include that we are talking about my blindly tuned mail in TT flash vs your custom in-car tune on Monkeys car.
Also - to me - how much power you are making when you are "pulling timing" is not that impressive to me as 95% of what I am doing when I am tuning is adjusting the car to HOLD all the timing and not knock at all. Trying to over tune a car for marketing purposes and lay down huge dyno numbers on a car that does not hold timing and that wont run right on higher boost for unknown reasons and needs the bost turned down - again for unknown reasons - is NOT my bag. Smoothness, reliability and a proper tune are the most important critera to judge a tune.
Belive me - there are many guys out there with huge power numbers with Dyno Flash - just take a look on our web site at some of the dyno figures. The difference is that they are also smooth and they dont pull timing.
There are many tuners out there who are claiming HUGE dyno numbers with various tuning products on various kinds of dynos using all sorts of rationals, forumulas and mathematics.
Those who want concrete SOLID and verified proof of what kind of performance you can get with a Dyno Flash should take a look at the DRAG STRIP times that my customers have achived which to date are the fastest of any reflash tuners. I have more customers going into the 11's thatr any other reflash tuner.
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
Those who want concrete SOLID and verified proof of what kind of performance you can get with a Dyno Flash should take a look at the DRAG STRIP times that my customers have achived which to date are the fastest of any reflash tuners. I have more customers going into the 11's thatr any other reflash tuner.
Anybody can run 11's with aftermarket turbos, etc. It's not that big of a deal. Let's keep the mod list apples to apples.
