Originally Posted by Dustin@Vishnu

When the stipulation was that this new factory block was going to be tuned to the level of all other stage2 STis ~235-240 on our dyno the comment was "unacceptable" and "a step backwards"

Originally Posted by cooter

I hope you meant ~335-340 =P

Originally Posted by umiami80

I don't understand why you would roll your eyes at a statement like that. Don't you believe that you should do the best job you can with the interest of safety and longevity? Don't you feel that you should be responsible for your actions? I understand that the customer was well blinded by the fact that his car was not as fast as the Evo and wanted it to run as fast that his reasoning was thrown out the window in the interest of power. This is where a tuner needs to step in and say that the engine is not strong enough or you need a bigger turbo and injectors and so on. I am not saying you took advantage, but you knew that this would eventually lead to an engine failure, you'd have to as your are an experienced tuner. but it seems like you did not care what happened to his car and placed the blame squarely on his shoulders when he has no idea what he is talking about nor the limits of his car, thats all I am saying. Both had a hand here.

This is in no way 100% the tuners fault, but I believe that some responsibilty needs to be taken, otherwise your paying someone who simply does not care about their customers cars. A deal on parts or deep discounted labor on the rebuild and so on.

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

It is 0% my fault. And I'll tell you why.

I tuned a 13 second car to reliably run 11.8 ETs. The customer comes back to make the car faster so he can keep up with a modified Viper and his brother. I say that going any further tuning is going to be too risky and likely result in failure due to inherent limitations in the motor and turbo. He says do it anyway because he plans to build the motor. I ask 'are you sure?' He says yes. I make sure others present hear it loud and clear. I then request that a liability waiver be signed which he does happily. I dial in more boost and more agreessive tuning. 2 weeks later it spins a bearing during a drag strip launch with R-compound tires. I fail to see a lapse in judgement on my part here. Perhaps the only think I could be faulted for is trusting that the customer knew the full consequences of a motor failure when requesting that we "go for broke".

Shiv

Originally Posted by propellerhead

Patient: Doctor, I need bigger ****.

Doctor: Good Lord, why?!? You have C-cups already!

Patient: Yes I know, but my sister's **** are bigger.

Doctor: Well, it's against my better advice, but it is medically feasible. But it's going to mean that you'll have to buy new bras and an entirely new wardrobe. Do you understand?

Patient: Yes, that's okay. I want to show them off anyway.

Doctor: I also have to tell you that in time they could become hard, lumpy and painful. This will require painful reconstruction surgery which could also result in the total loss of sensitivity of your breasts. Do you understand?

Patient: Yes, can we please schedule the surgery?

Doctor: My nurse will be right in with 'against medical advice' waiver that I must ask you to sign. You can meet me in my office afterwards and we'll schedule a surgery date.

Patient: Thank you doctor. Oh Doctor, I have just one more question.

Doctor: Yes?

Patient: How soon long after the surgery can I go to the beach? My sister is in a bikini contest and I can't let her win...

Originally Posted by propellerhead

Patient: Doctor, I need bigger ****.

Doctor: Good Lord, why?!? You have C-cups already!

Patient: Yes I know, but my sister's **** are bigger.

Doctor: Well, it's against my better advice, but it is medically feasible. But it's going to mean that you'll have to buy new bras and an entirely new wardrobe. Do you understand?

Patient: Yes, that's okay. I want to show them off anyway.

Doctor: I also have to tell you that in time they could become hard, lumpy and painful. This will require painful reconstruction surgery which could also result in the total loss of sensitivity of your breasts. Do you understand?

Patient: Yes, can we please schedule the surgery?

Doctor: My nurse will be right in with 'against medical advice' waiver that I must ask you to sign. You can meet me in my office afterwards and we'll schedule a surgery date.

Patient: Thank you doctor. Oh Doctor, I have just one more question.

Doctor: Yes?

Patient: How soon long after the surgery can I go to the beach? My sister is in a bikini contest and I can't let her win...

The moral of this lame *** story: Don't succumb to vanity. Dyno vanity, street vanity or tit vanity. If you've been warned and still want to live with the tradeoffs associated with modding, then fine, go enjoy yourself. But be prepared for when the "Grenade Fairy" comes to visit you and leaves a $8,000 bill under your pillow for a new motor.

Unfortunately this whole situation had a pretty slim chance of a positive outcome. From what little I know, this guy was motivated for the wrong reasons. Shiv should have shown the guy the door. But where would that had left Shiv? He'd be on here or some other mud slinging forum defending himself. On the flip side after warning the guy, he tuned the guy's car to a thin margin of safety against his own better judgement. The only opportunity for a positive outcome was that the motor would hold together.

What's the alternative? Are we going to be asked to watch an educational video showing grusome photos of fragged motors and then be asked to sign an indemnification waiver?

Originally Posted by umiami80

Tuners need to be more responsible with other peoples cars and apply their knowledge to their work, not apply the customer’s “Knowledge”. People come in with money and pie in the sky dreams and want things done that may not be possible without a LOT of money or hurting the car; they know little of what you do or tuning for the matter. My tuner will not allow something that can be harmful to a customers ride to be done, no matter what the customer asks and even turn down Business if it is a conflict. It sounds like this is what happened here. I mean how do you expect the tuner to blame the customer? Are you going to take the customers advice and tune by that and then blame him? If you did, you get what happened here. A tuner needs to look out for the best interests of the client no matter what the client says, there needs to be a complete professional attitude, or atleast fully explaine the negatives to the customer, and if that does not work, refuse to do that to the car. Who is the professional here? You could have simply stated that "this is all the car has, any more and it will blow"

Of course the customer has NEEDS and your supposed to fit them the best you can. But are you saying it’s ok to harm a customers car simply because he is asking for something his car can’t handle? The car has limits that you know of, and the customer obviously does not. The reason I used the Dr. analogy is that the Dr. has absolute knowledge in this field and is held to a high standard. He/she makes BIG bucks on just his/her opinion, and so do tuners. A Tuner simply cannot have their judgment compromised by inferior suggestions. Hell give me a car and I'll do whatever the customer asks me too, the car won't last though, that’s for sure. The difference is that there is no responsibility taken here, it's all written off.


To me, this is the difference between a wrench turner and a professional, a professional simply will not let their judgment be compromised, it was here.

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

What did I lie about Mark?

Originally Posted by the-moss

Sounds to me like this was a case of:

Let's push her harder...

Umm You have all the power you can safely get...

Let's try for more!

I can try for more but I think your motor will blow up.

I know, that's fine, do it anyway.

You do understand that your motor will break?

Yep I understand, not a problem, now get tuning already.

OK, sign this waiver.

Damn Shiv! Our motor blew!!

Woah!! What do you mean OUR motor??


Seems that both side agree on the details and the way that things happened, the disagreement is in the relaationship they had, and in hind sight I think the signing the (I promise that I will not hold Shiv responsible) waiver and the fact that I expect that he was still paying Shiv for the tuning should have been a good indicator of exactly whos car it is and who is responsible for any issues from the setup.

It seems that this is a misunderstanding of the relationship between Shiv and MGBSTI, Shiv saw it as a Vendor/Client relationship and MGBSTI saw it as a partnership... It's a shame that something small hadn't broken first so the relationship would have become clear without a monster bill.