White Rabbit Turbo
I find it funny that people who have counseled others on how you can not compare different dynos, are now doing just that! No matter how you slice it, this is a better comparison of "spool" , or "low end power". (and it is still not apples to apples as it is only the same dyno, but different cars).
The bottom three are stock 9.8 turbos with various mods... Not a TME, but they spool later than the WR on this dyno.
It kills me that SGP's dyno took a SHlT when I was starting to dyno tune mine... I showed 20psi and 308ft lbs at 3500rpm right before it took a crap. That, of course is with cams and several other mods. People should know me well enough to know that I go with what works... If that means a "cheap" turbo back, and an expensive turbo, well, there is a method to my madness.
Don't buy this turbo because Tym, myself, RRE, or anyone else says it is the bomb... it IS new, and it IS expensive, and I would sit back myself, and wait for results that were more geared to my setup too. However, I find it funny that so many, without personal experience, are willing to so blindly try so damn hard to find fault with it.
BTW when are us Texas folks going to get one of those marvel mystery oil S.M.A.R.T thing-a-ma-jigs? Now people down here really need 'em!
The bottom three are stock 9.8 turbos with various mods... Not a TME, but they spool later than the WR on this dyno.
It kills me that SGP's dyno took a SHlT when I was starting to dyno tune mine... I showed 20psi and 308ft lbs at 3500rpm right before it took a crap. That, of course is with cams and several other mods. People should know me well enough to know that I go with what works... If that means a "cheap" turbo back, and an expensive turbo, well, there is a method to my madness.
Don't buy this turbo because Tym, myself, RRE, or anyone else says it is the bomb... it IS new, and it IS expensive, and I would sit back myself, and wait for results that were more geared to my setup too. However, I find it funny that so many, without personal experience, are willing to so blindly try so damn hard to find fault with it.
BTW when are us Texas folks going to get one of those marvel mystery oil S.M.A.R.T thing-a-ma-jigs? Now people down here really need 'em!
Last edited by Zeus; Jun 16, 2005 at 11:00 PM.
Well my freind just ordered the turbo and we will recieve it by the 28th.. All he has is a 3" invidia TB exhuast, and a hallman MBC, we will be adding a walbro fuel pump, Tuning will be done via a Turbo trix flash... I opted for him to go this route instead of hks272's lets see what numbers this rabbit produces.
Zeus,
I'm going in a completely different direction than the TME or the White Rabbit, so I don't have any axe to grind. I can clearly see that the White Rabbit is a great turbo. Also, the newer overlays of the stockish cars with the white rabbit graphs does suggest almost stock-like spool. There is no doubt that the little rabbit pull like a freight train after four thousand rpms. The torque number is phenomenal.
I always compare Shiv's DD dnyo results with Andrew's DD dyno in Georgia, as they are the same dyno and are both calibrated properly. Similarly, Tym and Tuning Technologies both have brand new dynojets. I wouldn't compare small differences of 5 to 8 hp, but 40 to 60 seems significant. However, I am looking only at data from the START of pulls which may be more susceptable to variation based on roller weight, etc.
Zeus, I trust you. If you say it spools almost like stock or like stock, I'll believe you.
I'm going in a completely different direction than the TME or the White Rabbit, so I don't have any axe to grind. I can clearly see that the White Rabbit is a great turbo. Also, the newer overlays of the stockish cars with the white rabbit graphs does suggest almost stock-like spool. There is no doubt that the little rabbit pull like a freight train after four thousand rpms. The torque number is phenomenal.
I always compare Shiv's DD dnyo results with Andrew's DD dyno in Georgia, as they are the same dyno and are both calibrated properly. Similarly, Tym and Tuning Technologies both have brand new dynojets. I wouldn't compare small differences of 5 to 8 hp, but 40 to 60 seems significant. However, I am looking only at data from the START of pulls which may be more susceptable to variation based on roller weight, etc.
Zeus, I trust you. If you say it spools almost like stock or like stock, I'll believe you.
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Originally Posted by Smogrunner
Robert,
I know that you are a good guy and I respect you. But you are wrong on a couple of points. First, when you say "the only thing changed is the turbo" that is false. And when you say "at no point did the TME have much of an advantage" I guess you consider 60 torque and 40 whp at 3500rpms insignificant.
Finally, I wholeheartedly agree that the WR takes off at 4500 rpms, but my point was that it lags behind stock turbos getting to that point. It is a great turbo, but don't overblow it. I don't believe it spools like stock.
I know that you are a good guy and I respect you. But you are wrong on a couple of points. First, when you say "the only thing changed is the turbo" that is false. And when you say "at no point did the TME have much of an advantage" I guess you consider 60 torque and 40 whp at 3500rpms insignificant.
Finally, I wholeheartedly agree that the WR takes off at 4500 rpms, but my point was that it lags behind stock turbos getting to that point. It is a great turbo, but don't overblow it. I don't believe it spools like stock.
Originally Posted by ForcedPerf
Wow, we never expected such a response to this unit. hopefully an admin has activated this account and I'm not wasting my finger time typing a message that won't be posted due the lack of account activation 
There are a few questions that have been raised repeatedly and I'll try to answer them here, but first I want to thank Tym Switzer for his hard work and excellent tuning skills with the AEM. Tym has long been one of the best dependable power producing AEM tuners inside and outside of 4G63 circles that I know of.
Regarding A-B dyno graphs for stock to WR, we dont have any. We did all of our A-B work against a EVO6.5 TME turbo instead of a stock turbo. The dyno graph below shows RUN 008 for the TME against RUN 027 for the White Rabbit. These runs, like most all the runs we did during testing, were made using race gas at 25psi and 11.5-11.8 A/F ratio.
This graph demonstrates the difference in spool up between the TME turbo and the White rabbit turbocharger on the same engine with all other paramters held constant held constant. It is not a demonstration of an all out glory pull on either unit. The car used in this test was a 2.0 with typical bolton mods.
We understand that most consumers do not use racegas, we also understand that most consumers do not use the AEM EMS. That being said we choose to use both because we need the adjustability and datalogging features of the AEM and the knock protection of the leaded fuel during testing. The results/datalogs of the tuning efforts need to be carefully analyzed, and the test engines need to stay together during the testing. If you damage the engine part way through the testing and rebuild it then you no longer maintain the A-B test. Risking the engine doing repeated exploration of tuning parameters on pump gas does not make sense in the grand scheme of collecting useful comparison data.
For grins and giggles here is a look one of the components of the White Rabbit turbocharger that makes the whole package work, the compressor.
I know there is a voicemail box full of questions, and I will be doing my best to make all the return calls today.
Boost on!
Robert Young
Forced Performance Inc
There are a few questions that have been raised repeatedly and I'll try to answer them here, but first I want to thank Tym Switzer for his hard work and excellent tuning skills with the AEM. Tym has long been one of the best dependable power producing AEM tuners inside and outside of 4G63 circles that I know of.
Regarding A-B dyno graphs for stock to WR, we dont have any. We did all of our A-B work against a EVO6.5 TME turbo instead of a stock turbo. The dyno graph below shows RUN 008 for the TME against RUN 027 for the White Rabbit. These runs, like most all the runs we did during testing, were made using race gas at 25psi and 11.5-11.8 A/F ratio.
This graph demonstrates the difference in spool up between the TME turbo and the White rabbit turbocharger on the same engine with all other paramters held constant held constant. It is not a demonstration of an all out glory pull on either unit. The car used in this test was a 2.0 with typical bolton mods.
We understand that most consumers do not use racegas, we also understand that most consumers do not use the AEM EMS. That being said we choose to use both because we need the adjustability and datalogging features of the AEM and the knock protection of the leaded fuel during testing. The results/datalogs of the tuning efforts need to be carefully analyzed, and the test engines need to stay together during the testing. If you damage the engine part way through the testing and rebuild it then you no longer maintain the A-B test. Risking the engine doing repeated exploration of tuning parameters on pump gas does not make sense in the grand scheme of collecting useful comparison data.
For grins and giggles here is a look one of the components of the White Rabbit turbocharger that makes the whole package work, the compressor.
I know there is a voicemail box full of questions, and I will be doing my best to make all the return calls today.
Boost on!
Robert Young
Forced Performance Inc
I think you missed my point. I was refering to the attached post that shows just the turbo swap. I think it is difficult to compare the dyno plot you have with Switzer's. The cars are different, the mods are different and the dynos are different.
Check out the FP graph and notice that the only thing changed is the turbo. The power and torque of the FP mirror the TME and then leave it at 4500 rpm.
Looks pretty good to me.
Robert
Hey, I wasn't coming down on you Smoggy, your one of the "good guys". My only point with your statements is that on the same dyno, with the same tuner, the bottom end is basically the same as a "stock turbo/TME" then walks away. On the street, I experienced basically the same thing. Remember folks, my testing was that of drivability, and not most power. Remember that I'm the "daily driver" champion. We are seeing a decent amount of difference in when turbos "come on" with these different tuners, because they are just that... different tuners.
We are seeing a decent amount of difference in when turbos "come on" with these different tuners, because they are just that... different tuners.
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Originally Posted by Smogrunner
I stand corrected. Thanks Robert. Skepticism is healthy at times like this, don't you think? It brings clarification and scrutiny and we all end up with better data. 
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Originally Posted by dude
I think the consensus is wait until the hype dies down and you start seeing some non-biased dyno sheets being produced, hopefully on a Dyno Dynamics so we can have a comparison. By this time Vishnu mightcould have a cast stage 2 up and running. Inevitably Andrew at Dyno4mance will dyno one of each on the same dyno, and until then it will be nothing but armchair dyno racers and their *conversion* estimates.
Unless you're an early adopter or a HP junkie, I'd sit on the fence and see how this develops, look at the price points of the two options and make my decision from there. Keep in mind that white rabbit IS using AEM EMS but ISN'T using camshafts. I'll wait until I see a dyno of an Xede equipped car with cams and a white rabbit on a DD Dyno that way I can weigh it against the Vishnu Stage 2. People can argue about which is better, but from this competition we, the end users, benefit the most and I'm eagerly awaiting some results before I plunk down my mastercard.
Grasshopper say grab some popcorn, sit back and watch.
Unless you're an early adopter or a HP junkie, I'd sit on the fence and see how this develops, look at the price points of the two options and make my decision from there. Keep in mind that white rabbit IS using AEM EMS but ISN'T using camshafts. I'll wait until I see a dyno of an Xede equipped car with cams and a white rabbit on a DD Dyno that way I can weigh it against the Vishnu Stage 2. People can argue about which is better, but from this competition we, the end users, benefit the most and I'm eagerly awaiting some results before I plunk down my mastercard.
Grasshopper say grab some popcorn, sit back and watch.
Last edited by IE Evo; Jun 18, 2005 at 12:02 AM.
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From: North Mexico (Inland Empire)
Originally Posted by Smogrunner
Zeus,
I'm going in a completely different direction than the TME or the White Rabbit, so I don't have any axe to grind. I can clearly see that the White Rabbit is a great turbo. Also, the newer overlays of the stockish cars with the white rabbit graphs does suggest almost stock-like spool. There is no doubt that the little rabbit pull like a freight train after four thousand rpms. The torque number is phenomenal.
I always compare Shiv's DD dnyo results with Andrew's DD dyno in Georgia, as they are the same dyno and are both calibrated properly. Similarly, Tym and Tuning Technologies both have brand new dynojets. I wouldn't compare small differences of 5 to 8 hp, but 40 to 60 seems significant. However, I am looking only at data from the START of pulls which may be more susceptable to variation based on roller weight, etc.
Zeus, I trust you. If you say it spools almost like stock or like stock, I'll believe you.
I'm going in a completely different direction than the TME or the White Rabbit, so I don't have any axe to grind. I can clearly see that the White Rabbit is a great turbo. Also, the newer overlays of the stockish cars with the white rabbit graphs does suggest almost stock-like spool. There is no doubt that the little rabbit pull like a freight train after four thousand rpms. The torque number is phenomenal.
I always compare Shiv's DD dnyo results with Andrew's DD dyno in Georgia, as they are the same dyno and are both calibrated properly. Similarly, Tym and Tuning Technologies both have brand new dynojets. I wouldn't compare small differences of 5 to 8 hp, but 40 to 60 seems significant. However, I am looking only at data from the START of pulls which may be more susceptable to variation based on roller weight, etc.
Zeus, I trust you. If you say it spools almost like stock or like stock, I'll believe you.
Last edited by IE Evo; Jun 18, 2005 at 12:03 AM.
Originally Posted by Zeus
Hey, I wasn't coming down on you Smoggy, your one of the "good guys". My only point with your statements is that on the same dyno, with the same tuner, the bottom end is basically the same as a "stock turbo/TME" then walks away. On the street, I experienced basically the same thing. Remember folks, my testing was that of drivability, and not most power. Remember that I'm the "daily driver" champion. We are seeing a decent amount of difference in when turbos "come on" with these different tuners, because they are just that... different tuners.
We are seeing a decent amount of difference in when turbos "come on" with these different tuners, because they are just that... different tuners.
After looking at other Dynojet results of Evos with basic bolt on mods I can make two conclusions: First, the new WR turbo DOES spool like stock. Secondly, my dyno sheet that I have been floating around was a hell of a responsive pull. It seems to be outspooling even the stock turbo dyno sheets that I have found. (Maybe cam gears at -3 helps).
Originally Posted by Smogrunner
After looking at other Dynojet results of Evos with basic bolt on mods I can make two conclusions: First, the new WR turbo DOES spool like stock. Secondly, my dyno sheet that I have been floating around was a hell of a responsive pull. It seems to be outspooling even the stock turbo dyno sheets that I have found. (Maybe cam gears at -3 helps).