Case Study: Road "Tuning" vs Dyno Tuning (Merged)
Wait, are you talking about your Evo or your GSX? If your talking about your auto tranny then it makes sense what your saying, my bad.
Well back to the topic, sorta.
I understand people's frustrations stemming from the accuracy of a dyno. Yes they all read differently, but as a tuning tool it doesn't matter, since you get a baseline from it. Then you can do your pulls to see where your making more or less power.
They are directly related to one another... if your putting down higher numbers then someone else ON THE SAME DYNO, odds are, with equal skill, the person with the higher numbers (including mid-range, not just top end) are going to have faster timeslips.
Edited, that above quote wasn't mine.
Well back to the topic, sorta.
I understand people's frustrations stemming from the accuracy of a dyno. Yes they all read differently, but as a tuning tool it doesn't matter, since you get a baseline from it. Then you can do your pulls to see where your making more or less power.
Originally Posted by mr96gsx408
Anyhow, all I have to say is this: Dynos are for talking the talk. Timeslips are for walking the walk.
Edited, that above quote wasn't mine.
Last edited by Cloud; Jan 13, 2006 at 12:24 AM.
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Posts: 343
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From: San Diego
Wait a sec...
Al called Shiv out to play....Al trumped up that fact while trying to bury Shiv's responses with more talk, then Shiv finally caught up and responded to the challenge and ACCEPTED....now where is Al (or where is the public response) ?
Shiv allowed Al a way out by asking him to leave...whups, Al "leaves" when he sees he's been called on his challenge - exit stage left...
Just a heads up for those of you with less than a few years on these boards (and the ways of the public forums), Al has been doing this for YEARS - naisoc, evom, iclub, etc, ad nauseam. It's always the same FUD from him, but gotta hand him a cookie for making so much money by building up a business based on Guerrilla Marketing -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_marketing
Critical thinking is a good thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking
Al called Shiv out to play....Al trumped up that fact while trying to bury Shiv's responses with more talk, then Shiv finally caught up and responded to the challenge and ACCEPTED....now where is Al (or where is the public response) ?
Shiv allowed Al a way out by asking him to leave...whups, Al "leaves" when he sees he's been called on his challenge - exit stage left...
Just a heads up for those of you with less than a few years on these boards (and the ways of the public forums), Al has been doing this for YEARS - naisoc, evom, iclub, etc, ad nauseam. It's always the same FUD from him, but gotta hand him a cookie for making so much money by building up a business based on Guerrilla Marketing -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_marketing
Critical thinking is a good thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 106
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From: Florida
Originally Posted by DrMerl
Wait a sec...
Al called Shiv out to play....Al trumped up that fact while trying to bury Shiv's responses with more talk, then Shiv finally caught up and responded to the challenge and ACCEPTED....now where is Al (or where is the public response) ?
Shiv allowed Al a way out by asking him to leave...whups, Al "leaves" when he sees he's been called on his challenge - exit stage left...
Just a heads up for those of you with less than a few years on these boards (and the ways of the public forums), Al has been doing this for YEARS - naisoc, evom, iclub, etc, ad nauseam. It's always the same FUD from him, but gotta hand him a cookie for making so much money by building up a business based on Guerrilla Marketing -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_marketing
Critical thinking is a good thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking
Al called Shiv out to play....Al trumped up that fact while trying to bury Shiv's responses with more talk, then Shiv finally caught up and responded to the challenge and ACCEPTED....now where is Al (or where is the public response) ?
Shiv allowed Al a way out by asking him to leave...whups, Al "leaves" when he sees he's been called on his challenge - exit stage left...
Just a heads up for those of you with less than a few years on these boards (and the ways of the public forums), Al has been doing this for YEARS - naisoc, evom, iclub, etc, ad nauseam. It's always the same FUD from him, but gotta hand him a cookie for making so much money by building up a business based on Guerrilla Marketing -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_marketing
Critical thinking is a good thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking
Last edited by poormansracecar; Jan 12, 2006 at 09:42 PM.
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From: Danville/Blackhawk, California
Originally Posted by poormansracecar
Nice post !!! What the hell does that have to do with Tuning on a Dyno or Road? Rofl
Originally Posted by Cloud
"Anyhow, all I have to say is this: Dynos are for talking the talk. Timeslips are for walking the walk"
Originally Posted by Cloud
They are directly related to one another... if your putting down higher numbers then someone else ON THE SAME DYNO, odds are, with equal skill, the person with the higher numbers (including mid-range, not just top end) are going to have faster timeslips.
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
Wouldn't it really be nice if Shiv's tuning could really make 30 - 40 more whp with less mods and lower boost ?
l8r)
All-in-all, I think I would say this on the whole dyno tuning vs road tuning debate:
- Dyno tuning is very useful to tune your car in a safe environment, in controlled conditions, allowing the tuner to take a measured and methodical approach to tuning your engine. It is also the only way to accurately map every cell/load condition in your engine management system's maps. To this end a load bearing dyno is a much more useful tool than an inertial dyno.
- Road tuning on public roads is not safe, sane, legal, nor does it allow the tuner/driver to control the surrounding variable to a satisfactory degree
- Road tuning on a private road and/or a track may allow you to fine-tune your car for a particular event or condition (i.e. 1/4 mile track tuning, road race tuning). Furthermore, basic road tuning may be required if you are running an aggressive tune and ambient conditions change to a large enough degree, which then throws off your tune enough to potentially harm your engine (read: this is what I go through in Chicago every fall and winter).
l8r)
- Dyno tuning is very useful to tune your car in a safe environment, in controlled conditions, allowing the tuner to take a measured and methodical approach to tuning your engine. It is also the only way to accurately map every cell/load condition in your engine management system's maps. To this end a load bearing dyno is a much more useful tool than an inertial dyno.
- Road tuning on public roads is not safe, sane, legal, nor does it allow the tuner/driver to control the surrounding variable to a satisfactory degree
- Road tuning on a private road and/or a track may allow you to fine-tune your car for a particular event or condition (i.e. 1/4 mile track tuning, road race tuning). Furthermore, basic road tuning may be required if you are running an aggressive tune and ambient conditions change to a large enough degree, which then throws off your tune enough to potentially harm your engine (read: this is what I go through in Chicago every fall and winter).
l8r)
I would like to add: 1/4mile tuning yeilds to a very specialized narrow operating engine range tune at WOT. May be ok for some piggyback systems but for ECU tuning and Stand alone systems, closed loop operating condition most likely will require tuning for improved drivevability.
Originally Posted by mr96gsx408
I'm kinda suprised nobody looked at gear ratios in conjunction with the dyno, as the evo 8 and 9 and MR all have slighty different ratios. Elevation might also affect the density of air also. These might effect numbers slightly.
Originally Posted by mr96gsx408
And for those of you that think a engineering degree doesn't mean anything, try getting one, and maybe you'll respect people with them more. Or ask your boss, unless he's a business major, those guys don't count 
I have an engineering degree, I know how hard they are to get.
- Steve
I just finish spending ALL of my evening from work reading this entire thread - You guys have got to be kidding me!!
I've been into modding cars since 1989 and in all my years, I have never seen such non-unity amoungst a particular car community. It sickens me to see such competition with the SAME CAR!!! This whole thing about tuning and parts and IX vs. VIII is just ridiculous! It makes one want to just buy a different car altogether and leave this high performance scene!
While the thread was educational in some regards, it was, for the majority, a ridiculous waste of time to read.
I don't know what to say about all of this...
Why aren't their more tuners for the EVO community? If there were probably over 100 tuners in the US, then I guess this bickering would be nullified.
It's no wonder I don't go to any events pertaining to the cars I own...
-M
I've been into modding cars since 1989 and in all my years, I have never seen such non-unity amoungst a particular car community. It sickens me to see such competition with the SAME CAR!!! This whole thing about tuning and parts and IX vs. VIII is just ridiculous! It makes one want to just buy a different car altogether and leave this high performance scene!
While the thread was educational in some regards, it was, for the majority, a ridiculous waste of time to read.
I don't know what to say about all of this...
Why aren't their more tuners for the EVO community? If there were probably over 100 tuners in the US, then I guess this bickering would be nullified.
It's no wonder I don't go to any events pertaining to the cars I own...
-M
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Posts: 150
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From: south colton
Just so everyone knows. Both Shiv and Al were offered an esy way to end this argument. The details are below along with Al's response. FWIW Shiv accepted the offer.
Re: Would you like to put the rod tune vs dyno tune issue to rest?
Jan 10, 2006, 07:45 PM
I will consider your offer and get back to you - thanks Quote:
Originally Posted by beavis4g63t
Al,
I have a brand new evo9 with about 340 miles on it. I would offer it to you so that you could road tune it. I will then allow shiv to dyno tune it. I own my own 424x dynojet so i can dyno the car after you tune it and then once again after shiv tunes it.
here are the rules:
The car will be 100 percent stock. Any changes must be made via the flash. This is to ensure no other variables.
I baseline the car.
You are coming to socal in two weeks so i will allow you to road tune my car when you are here.
I will dyno the car after your road tune with you present and keep the results hidden until the challenge is over.
You can erase your flash and put me back to stock if you want.
I will then allow shiv to dynotune the car on the same day if possible.
Results will be posted in a locked thread that only you, i, and shiv can post in.
I have no desire to skew the results and will gladly post the numbers objectively and let them speak for themselves.
Re: Would you like to put the rod tune vs dyno tune issue to rest?
Jan 10, 2006, 10:34 PM
My main reservation is lack of time. I am working 14 hour days and booked solid just about every day for past two months. I am 100% booked up in LA already and a proper Evo IX tune takes me at least 3 hours as the flash takes 18 minutes per.
I will see what i can do and if i can find any time and get back to you - appreciate your kind offer Quote:
Originally Posted by beavis4g63t
Quote:
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
I will consider your offer and get back to you - thanks Quote:
Originally Posted by beavis4g63t
Al,
I have a brand new evo9 with about 340 miles on it. I would offer it to you so that you could road tune it. I will then allow shiv to dyno tune it. I own my own 424x dynojet so i can dyno the car after you tune it and then once again after shiv tunes it.
here are the rules:
The car will be 100 percent stock. Any changes must be made via the flash. This is to ensure no other variables.
I baseline the car.
You are coming to socal in two weeks so i will allow you to road tune my car when you are here.
I will dyno the car after your road tune with you present and keep the results hidden until the challenge is over.
You can erase your flash and put me back to stock if you want.
I will then allow shiv to dynotune the car on the same day if possible.
Results will be posted in a locked thread that only you, i, and shiv can post in.
I have no desire to skew the results and will gladly post the numbers objectively and let them speak for themselves.
We can meet at the gas station of your choice and we can fill the car up. i would like to eliminate as many variables as possible. We just added a datalogging unit to our dynojet stack so i can show the boost now in addition to afr's. We have a good reputation in the socal community and we do not do any flashing in house so we have no need to fudge the results.
Re: Would you like to put the rod tune vs dyno tune issue to rest?
Jan 10, 2006, 07:45 PM
I will consider your offer and get back to you - thanks Quote:
Originally Posted by beavis4g63t
Al,
I have a brand new evo9 with about 340 miles on it. I would offer it to you so that you could road tune it. I will then allow shiv to dyno tune it. I own my own 424x dynojet so i can dyno the car after you tune it and then once again after shiv tunes it.
here are the rules:
The car will be 100 percent stock. Any changes must be made via the flash. This is to ensure no other variables.
I baseline the car.
You are coming to socal in two weeks so i will allow you to road tune my car when you are here.
I will dyno the car after your road tune with you present and keep the results hidden until the challenge is over.
You can erase your flash and put me back to stock if you want.
I will then allow shiv to dynotune the car on the same day if possible.
Results will be posted in a locked thread that only you, i, and shiv can post in.
I have no desire to skew the results and will gladly post the numbers objectively and let them speak for themselves.
Re: Would you like to put the rod tune vs dyno tune issue to rest?
Jan 10, 2006, 10:34 PM
My main reservation is lack of time. I am working 14 hour days and booked solid just about every day for past two months. I am 100% booked up in LA already and a proper Evo IX tune takes me at least 3 hours as the flash takes 18 minutes per.
I will see what i can do and if i can find any time and get back to you - appreciate your kind offer Quote:
Originally Posted by beavis4g63t
Quote:
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
I will consider your offer and get back to you - thanks Quote:
Originally Posted by beavis4g63t
Al,
I have a brand new evo9 with about 340 miles on it. I would offer it to you so that you could road tune it. I will then allow shiv to dyno tune it. I own my own 424x dynojet so i can dyno the car after you tune it and then once again after shiv tunes it.
here are the rules:
The car will be 100 percent stock. Any changes must be made via the flash. This is to ensure no other variables.
I baseline the car.
You are coming to socal in two weeks so i will allow you to road tune my car when you are here.
I will dyno the car after your road tune with you present and keep the results hidden until the challenge is over.
You can erase your flash and put me back to stock if you want.
I will then allow shiv to dynotune the car on the same day if possible.
Results will be posted in a locked thread that only you, i, and shiv can post in.
I have no desire to skew the results and will gladly post the numbers objectively and let them speak for themselves.
We can meet at the gas station of your choice and we can fill the car up. i would like to eliminate as many variables as possible. We just added a datalogging unit to our dynojet stack so i can show the boost now in addition to afr's. We have a good reputation in the socal community and we do not do any flashing in house so we have no need to fudge the results.
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From: south colton
I also posted on the Dynoflash forum trying to reserve the last spot that was open for his socal trip. https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...0&page=2&pp=15
I think this issue is done until both parties can meet and perform the type of test i proposed. Al the ball is in your court. I think the community would benefit from a definitive answer.
I think this issue is done until both parties can meet and perform the type of test i proposed. Al the ball is in your court. I think the community would benefit from a definitive answer.
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From: North Mexico (Inland Empire)
Originally Posted by beavis4g63t
I also posted on the Dynoflash forum trying to reserve the last spot that was open for his socal trip. https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...0&page=2&pp=15
I think this issue is done until both parties can meet and perform the type of test i proposed. Al the ball is in your court. I think the community would benefit from a definitive answer.
I think this issue is done until both parties can meet and perform the type of test i proposed. Al the ball is in your court. I think the community would benefit from a definitive answer.