Case Study: Road "Tuning" vs Dyno Tuning (Merged)
Just so EVERYONE can read this:
Application Note: You CAN be too Rich
By Klaus Allmendinger, VP of Engineering, Innovate Motorsports
Many people with turbochargers believe that they need to run at very rich mixtures. The theory is that the excess fuel cools the intake charge and therefore reduces the probability of knock. It does work in reducing knock, but not because of charge cooling. The following little article shows why.
First let’s look at the science. Specific heat is the amount of energy required to raise 1 kg of material by one degree K (Kelvin, same as Celsius but with 0 point at absolute zero). Different materials have different specific heats. The energy is measured in kJ or kilojoules:
Air ~ 1 kJ/( kg * deg K)
Gasoline 2.02 kJ/( kg * deg K)
Water 4.18 kJ/( kg * deg K)
Ethanol 2.43 kJ/( kg * deg K)
Methanol 2.51 kJ/( kg * deg K)
Fuel and other liquids also have what's called latent heat. This is the heat energy required to vaporize 1 kg of the liquid. The fuel in an internal combustion engine has to be vaporized and mixed thoroughly with the incoming air to produce power. Liquid gasoline does not burn. The energy to vaporize the fuel comes partially from the incoming air, cooling it. The latent heat energy required is actually much larger than the specific heat. That the energy comes from the incoming air can be easily seen on older carbureted cars, where frost can actually form on the intake manifold from the cooling of the charge.
The latent heat values of different liquids are shown here:
Gasoline 350 kJ/kg
Water 2256 kJ/kg
Ethanol 904 kJ/kg
Methanol 1109 kJ/kg
Most engines produce maximum power (with optimized ignition timing) at an air-fuel-ratio between 12 and 13. Let's assume the optimum is in the middle at 12.5. This means that for every kg of air, 0.08 kg of fuel is mixed in and vaporized. The vaporization of the fuel extracts 28 kJ of energy from the air charge. If the mixture has an air-fuel-ratio of 11 instead, the vaporization extracts 31.8 kJ instead. A difference of 3.8 kJ. Because air has a specific heat of about 1 kJ/kg*deg K, the air charge is only 3.8 C (or K) degrees cooler for the rich mixture compared to the optimum power mixture. This small difference has very little effect on knock or power output.
If instead of the richer mixture about 10% (by mass) of water would be injected in the intake charge (0.008 kg Water/kg air), the high latent heat of the water would cool the charge by 18 degrees, about 4 times the cooling effect of the richer mixture. The added fuel for the rich mixture can't burn because there is just not enough oxygen available. So it does not matter if fuel or water is added.
So where does the knock suppression of richer mixtures come from?
If the mixture gets ignited by the spark, a flame front spreads out from the spark plug. This burning mixture increases the pressure and temperature in the cylinder. At some time in the process the pressures and temperatures peak. The speed of the flame front is dependent on mixture density and AFR. A richer or leaner AFR than about 12-13 AFR burns slower. A denser mixture burns faster.
So with a turbo under boost the mixture density raises and results in a faster burning mixture. The closer the peak pressure is to TDC, the higher that peak pressure is, resulting in a high knock probability. Also there is less leverage on the crankshaft for the pressure to produce torque, and, therefore, less power.
Richening up the mixture results in a slower burn, moving the pressure peak later where there is more leverage, hence more torque. Also the pressure peak is lower at a later crank angle and the knock probability is reduced. The same effect can be achieved with an optimum power mixture and more ignition retard.
Optimum mix with “later” ignition can produce more power because more energy is released from the combustion of gasoline. Here’s why: When hydrocarbons like gasoline combust, the burn process actually happens in multiple stages. First the gasoline molecules are broken up into hydrogen and carbon. The hydrogen combines with oxygen from the air to form H2O (water) and the carbon molecules form CO. This process happens very fast at the front edge of the flame front. The second stage converts CO to CO2. This process is relatively slow and requires water molecules (from the first stage) for completion. If there is no more oxygen available (most of it consumed in the first stage), the second stage can't happen. But about 2/3 of the energy released from the burning of the carbon is released in the second stage. Therefore a richer mixture releases less energy, lowering peak pressures and temperatures, and produces less power. A secondary side effect is of course also a lowering of knock probability. It's like closing the throttle a little. A typical engine does not knock when running on part throttle because less energy and therefore lower pressures and temperatures are in the cylinder.
This is why running overly-rich mixtures can not only increase fuel consumption, but also cost power.
By Klaus Allmendinger, VP of Engineering, Innovate Motorsports
Many people with turbochargers believe that they need to run at very rich mixtures. The theory is that the excess fuel cools the intake charge and therefore reduces the probability of knock. It does work in reducing knock, but not because of charge cooling. The following little article shows why.
First let’s look at the science. Specific heat is the amount of energy required to raise 1 kg of material by one degree K (Kelvin, same as Celsius but with 0 point at absolute zero). Different materials have different specific heats. The energy is measured in kJ or kilojoules:
Air ~ 1 kJ/( kg * deg K)
Gasoline 2.02 kJ/( kg * deg K)
Water 4.18 kJ/( kg * deg K)
Ethanol 2.43 kJ/( kg * deg K)
Methanol 2.51 kJ/( kg * deg K)
Fuel and other liquids also have what's called latent heat. This is the heat energy required to vaporize 1 kg of the liquid. The fuel in an internal combustion engine has to be vaporized and mixed thoroughly with the incoming air to produce power. Liquid gasoline does not burn. The energy to vaporize the fuel comes partially from the incoming air, cooling it. The latent heat energy required is actually much larger than the specific heat. That the energy comes from the incoming air can be easily seen on older carbureted cars, where frost can actually form on the intake manifold from the cooling of the charge.
The latent heat values of different liquids are shown here:
Gasoline 350 kJ/kg
Water 2256 kJ/kg
Ethanol 904 kJ/kg
Methanol 1109 kJ/kg
Most engines produce maximum power (with optimized ignition timing) at an air-fuel-ratio between 12 and 13. Let's assume the optimum is in the middle at 12.5. This means that for every kg of air, 0.08 kg of fuel is mixed in and vaporized. The vaporization of the fuel extracts 28 kJ of energy from the air charge. If the mixture has an air-fuel-ratio of 11 instead, the vaporization extracts 31.8 kJ instead. A difference of 3.8 kJ. Because air has a specific heat of about 1 kJ/kg*deg K, the air charge is only 3.8 C (or K) degrees cooler for the rich mixture compared to the optimum power mixture. This small difference has very little effect on knock or power output.
If instead of the richer mixture about 10% (by mass) of water would be injected in the intake charge (0.008 kg Water/kg air), the high latent heat of the water would cool the charge by 18 degrees, about 4 times the cooling effect of the richer mixture. The added fuel for the rich mixture can't burn because there is just not enough oxygen available. So it does not matter if fuel or water is added.
So where does the knock suppression of richer mixtures come from?
If the mixture gets ignited by the spark, a flame front spreads out from the spark plug. This burning mixture increases the pressure and temperature in the cylinder. At some time in the process the pressures and temperatures peak. The speed of the flame front is dependent on mixture density and AFR. A richer or leaner AFR than about 12-13 AFR burns slower. A denser mixture burns faster.
So with a turbo under boost the mixture density raises and results in a faster burning mixture. The closer the peak pressure is to TDC, the higher that peak pressure is, resulting in a high knock probability. Also there is less leverage on the crankshaft for the pressure to produce torque, and, therefore, less power.
Richening up the mixture results in a slower burn, moving the pressure peak later where there is more leverage, hence more torque. Also the pressure peak is lower at a later crank angle and the knock probability is reduced. The same effect can be achieved with an optimum power mixture and more ignition retard.
Optimum mix with “later” ignition can produce more power because more energy is released from the combustion of gasoline. Here’s why: When hydrocarbons like gasoline combust, the burn process actually happens in multiple stages. First the gasoline molecules are broken up into hydrogen and carbon. The hydrogen combines with oxygen from the air to form H2O (water) and the carbon molecules form CO. This process happens very fast at the front edge of the flame front. The second stage converts CO to CO2. This process is relatively slow and requires water molecules (from the first stage) for completion. If there is no more oxygen available (most of it consumed in the first stage), the second stage can't happen. But about 2/3 of the energy released from the burning of the carbon is released in the second stage. Therefore a richer mixture releases less energy, lowering peak pressures and temperatures, and produces less power. A secondary side effect is of course also a lowering of knock probability. It's like closing the throttle a little. A typical engine does not knock when running on part throttle because less energy and therefore lower pressures and temperatures are in the cylinder.
This is why running overly-rich mixtures can not only increase fuel consumption, but also cost power.
There is no doubt that rich conditions cost you SOME power
However - my suggestion is that the small loss in power is worth it when you conisder the consiquences of running too lean on a bad tank of gas
This is my main theme I am trying to riase here
MAX WHP is not that important on a street car - MAX RELIABILITY is
The concept of good tuning is about extracting most of the power available - note word MOST - while keeping it 99.999 % safe
Going to the edge of what is possible to get the last 10 whp is foolish if you ask me
My point - MITSUBISHI runs the cars neat 9.8 /1 a/f at full load in the higher rpms
Do you think that they missed the Innovate article when they mapped these cars - or where they thinking of something bigger than max whp?
However - my suggestion is that the small loss in power is worth it when you conisder the consiquences of running too lean on a bad tank of gas
This is my main theme I am trying to riase here
MAX WHP is not that important on a street car - MAX RELIABILITY is
The concept of good tuning is about extracting most of the power available - note word MOST - while keeping it 99.999 % safe
Going to the edge of what is possible to get the last 10 whp is foolish if you ask me
My point - MITSUBISHI runs the cars neat 9.8 /1 a/f at full load in the higher rpms
Do you think that they missed the Innovate article when they mapped these cars - or where they thinking of something bigger than max whp?
Thread Starter
Evolved Member
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From: Danville/Blackhawk, California
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
Flatterd of course that a master of tuning like yourself is now using my words in his signature, you honor me
Now will you answer the questions I have posed or will you continue to avoid discussing WHY
has the car so detuned from the factory ?
BTW - do you think you are the only person on the planet who can adjust a fuel map lean and retard timing ? There is no "trick" to running a car lean. Going a bit richer does not cost you much power - but it may not get you as many bragging rights with your peak power #'s
I think most professional tuners would agree that 12/1 a/f and 23 psi at peak tq is a bit on the agressive side
I dont even run my race evo that goes on VP import that lean as I am the one who would have to pay to fix any blown motors - why risk popping a head gasket for another 15 whp ?
Now will you answer the questions I have posed or will you continue to avoid discussing WHY
has the car so detuned from the factory ?BTW - do you think you are the only person on the planet who can adjust a fuel map lean and retard timing ? There is no "trick" to running a car lean. Going a bit richer does not cost you much power - but it may not get you as many bragging rights with your peak power #'s
I think most professional tuners would agree that 12/1 a/f and 23 psi at peak tq is a bit on the agressive side
I dont even run my race evo that goes on VP import that lean as I am the one who would have to pay to fix any blown motors - why risk popping a head gasket for another 15 whp ?
First, let's go back to your statement...
I think most professional tuners would agree that 12/1 a/f and 23 psi at peak tq is a bit on the agressive side
Now will you answer the questions I have posed or will you continue to avoid discussing WHY
has the car so detuned from the factory ?
has the car so detuned from the factory ?
BTW - do you think you are the only person on the planet who can adjust a fuel map lean and retard timing ? There is no "trick" to running a car lean. Going a bit richer does not cost you much power - but it may not get you as many bragging rights with your peak power #'s
I dont even run my race evo that goes on VP import that lean as I am the one who would have to pay to fix any blown motors - why risk popping a head gasket for another 15 whp ?
-shiv
Last edited by shiv@vishnu; Jan 12, 2006 at 02:02 PM.
Originally Posted by sneakychaos
Rhetorical.
Enhance.
Dialogue.
Flattered.
I wouldn't be so flattered. I would, however, be more concerned with your english language skills and ability to spell simple words in a correct manner. Perhaps this trivial problem co-exists in the tunes you do?
Enhance.
Dialogue.
Flattered.
I wouldn't be so flattered. I would, however, be more concerned with your english language skills and ability to spell simple words in a correct manner. Perhaps this trivial problem co-exists in the tunes you do?
Think Ima gona drop me car off at Harvord or Yale for me next tunage. Wee all knows this is besst....... Back to Hooked on phonics so me can learn to drive alsos..
Originally Posted by Event-Horizon
so let me get this right, shiv tunes the car more EFFICIENTLY and SAFELY, and you get BETTER gas mileage?
wow.
wow.
Originally Posted by pretend-evo
Are you aware the entire drive train from a dsm is identicle to early evos?? I thru III i think,,, then the evo IV flipped the engine and tranny....
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu
This is what you do. And I have to admire you for have the guts to keep on doing it, over and over again. You get a hold of one tiny tidbit of information and run with it. Chant it from the top of mountain tops. You repeat it until anyone who is less educated that yourself on the subject of tuning (yes, I do think such people exist) accept it as fact.
First, let's go back to your statement...
Any professional tuner wouldn't make such a statement. They would never make such a simplistic statement without some context. They would ask, "what RPM are we talking about?" and "What kind of advance is it running?" and "what kind of exhaust backpressure are we seeing under those conditions?"
To account for the lowest common denominator and still allowing room to grow when offering new-and-improved models/versions. HP targets have nearly as much to do with marketing as they do with technology.
Please re-read the posts on this specific topic. I can't even respond to this comment because I know you don't know what we're talking about. I'm serious.. I'm not trying to be a jerk. Just re-read it, digest it and ask again.
Why risk popping a motor at all? Just tune it right.
-shiv
First, let's go back to your statement...
Any professional tuner wouldn't make such a statement. They would never make such a simplistic statement without some context. They would ask, "what RPM are we talking about?" and "What kind of advance is it running?" and "what kind of exhaust backpressure are we seeing under those conditions?"
To account for the lowest common denominator and still allowing room to grow when offering new-and-improved models/versions. HP targets have nearly as much to do with marketing as they do with technology.
Please re-read the posts on this specific topic. I can't even respond to this comment because I know you don't know what we're talking about. I'm serious.. I'm not trying to be a jerk. Just re-read it, digest it and ask again.
Why risk popping a motor at all? Just tune it right.
-shiv
I dont have to ask what kind of back pressure b/c I know the car and the modifications
We are talking Evo IX with Buschur Exhuast
We are talking 91 octane Cali pump gas
I think the customers are intilegent enough to look at the graphs you have posted and realize the main points
1 - The car I tuned on the base run was not operating properly - (WHY is a matter of debate - either my tuning sucks or the car had a loose upper fmic pipe or leaking bov flange - at this point throuh your lack of a careful investigation we will never know the answer as to what was the root problm)
2 - Your tune made much more power - but it also ran much more boost
3 - Your tune on 91 octane ran at 23 psi and 12/1 a/f till 4,000 rpms
These are the simple facts
The conclusion you draw is no doubt something that comes from which tuner you support
I would say that generally
I tune richer and more conservatively
You tune leaner
Now - will you ever answer the question on why
tunes these cars so richly if tuning rich is so bad?
Originally Posted by poormansracecar
^^ Lol. According to this guy, only Grammar Scholars can tune cars....
Think Ima gona drop me car off at Harvord or Yale for me next tunage. Wee all knows this is besst....... Back to Hooked on phonics so me can learn to drive alsos..
Think Ima gona drop me car off at Harvord or Yale for me next tunage. Wee all knows this is besst....... Back to Hooked on phonics so me can learn to drive alsos..
I have a doctorate degree which I think more than qualifies me to work on cars
Please read:
I have never seen so many reported posts from one thread. And now the reported post function is part of the game. The moderator's are not going to play anymore. We will not respond to any additional reported posts. If the thread accumulates posts that violates our rules the thread will be locked.
Shiv if that is not satisfactory then I will lock the thread. Al if that is not satisfactory then do not post in this forum. And if either of you (or both) are really dissatisfied then take if up with the owner. I do want to thank the members who posted responsible and in good faith.
Speedlimit....
I have never seen so many reported posts from one thread. And now the reported post function is part of the game. The moderator's are not going to play anymore. We will not respond to any additional reported posts. If the thread accumulates posts that violates our rules the thread will be locked.
Shiv if that is not satisfactory then I will lock the thread. Al if that is not satisfactory then do not post in this forum. And if either of you (or both) are really dissatisfied then take if up with the owner. I do want to thank the members who posted responsible and in good faith.
Speedlimit....
Last edited by Speedlimit; Jan 12, 2006 at 02:52 PM.
hmm...
I think you can do so in a more professional manner,
,
subtly ironic., after this thread i would, most likely, try to avoid your business..
however, since you do flashes for buschur,, I guess you will,, indirectly, still get my business....
oh well..
a little advice.. try to take the high road to these posts,,,, only answer direct questions and avoid typing another letter after you do so..
it would be a huge leap in professionalism for you!
I think you can do so in a more professional manner,
,
If this means some people choose not to deal with me - I am sorry
But - I would rather go out of business than allow people to trash my work with manipulated information and insult me
But - I would rather go out of business than allow people to trash my work with manipulated information and insult me
however, since you do flashes for buschur,, I guess you will,, indirectly, still get my business....
oh well..
a little advice.. try to take the high road to these posts,,,, only answer direct questions and avoid typing another letter after you do so..
it would be a huge leap in professionalism for you!
Originally Posted by Event-Horizon
Just so EVERYONE can read this:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=112282
And gentlemen ... can we PLEASE stop flaming?
l8r)
I do!!!
A Real Bachelors of Science in Mechanical Engineering from an ABET acredited University.
But what does that mean?? nothing really.......
studying Fracture based mechanics or the distortion energy theory of yeilding doesn't help tune my dsm...
A Real Bachelors of Science in Mechanical Engineering from an ABET acredited University.
But what does that mean?? nothing really.......
studying Fracture based mechanics or the distortion energy theory of yeilding doesn't help tune my dsm...
Originally Posted by pretend-evo
I do!!!
A Real Bachelors of Science in Mechanical Engineering from an ABET acredited University.
But what does that mean?? nothing really.......
studying Fracture based mechanics or the distortion energy theory of yeilding doesn't help tune my dsm...
A Real Bachelors of Science in Mechanical Engineering from an ABET acredited University.
But what does that mean?? nothing really.......
studying Fracture based mechanics or the distortion energy theory of yeilding doesn't help tune my dsm...
Besides, i'd like to know if those tuners have any credentials (other than experience, because "I have a ton of experience also") before I pay several hundred on my investment.
Last edited by mr96gsx408; Jan 12, 2006 at 03:30 PM.






