Isn't That Lean?
Oh I completely agree with the information you have provided above. This information does have me thinking about what AFR's I am running so I'm going to double check -- redo the wideband calibration and then do some data logging.
[QUOTE=nj1266]
For one the off the shelf maps DO NOT have a maxed out boost at the top end.
They taper to 16 psi by redline. [/qoute]
The stock maps DO have maxed out boost on top end but the turbo cannot supply the airflow to hold the desired boost level.
Again the fuel map doesn not indicate Shiv is aiming for 12.5:1 AFR. In fact the standard stage one map is a map from a car in Texas that was dyno tuned for 11.5:1.
12.5:1 IS TOO FRIGGEN LEAN ON PUMP GAS
For one the off the shelf maps DO NOT have a maxed out boost at the top end.
They taper to 16 psi by redline. [/qoute]
The stock maps DO have maxed out boost on top end but the turbo cannot supply the airflow to hold the desired boost level.
Originally Posted by nj1266
Second, the fuel map indicates that Shiv is trying to hit 12.5:1. That is the optimal burn point. That thing that I have not figured out yet is this: Is the timing dailed back enough to allow such an AFR w/o serious knock?
12.5:1 IS TOO FRIGGEN LEAN ON PUMP GAS
Originally Posted by Jeff_Jeske
Again the fuel map doesn not indicate Shiv is aiming for 12.5:1 AFR. In fact the standard stage one map is a map from a car in Texas that was dyno tuned for 11.5:1.
12.5:1 IS TOO FRIGGEN LEAN ON PUMP GAS
12.5:1 IS TOO FRIGGEN LEAN ON PUMP GAS
You said:
Every single map I've downloaded for my car has been too lean. Dyno'ing after staged upgrades almost always indicated AFRs at 13.5:1 at peak torque and timing retard around 5500rpm. I always have to add some fuel and tweak some timing to get a nice smooth curve. It should be noted that even with the walbro I am starting to lean out up top on pump gas. My injector duty cycle is reaching 100% on pump.
12.5:1 on pump is too lean especially since Vishnu claims these are open track maps. When I called him on this he said 12.5:1 at peak torque is fine because there's not much timing advance and you're only there for a second or two. After researching this I found that to be a standard evo tuning method. Running 12.5:1 after that is not safe and I highly doubt his maps are intended to run that lean. Luck for us the stock ECU has VERY AGGRESSIVE safety features.
I will NEVER recommend that to anyone. Effeciency and optimum burn point is one thing, but FOR ME the safety of my 32K investment is the MOST IMPORTANT thing. When it is time to track my car, I will run 100 octane gas with no more than 11.5:1 AFR, and no timing retard.
Originally Posted by Kronik
Oh I completely agree with the information you have provided above. This information does have me thinking about what AFR's I am running so I'm going to double check -- redo the wideband calibration and then do some data logging.
) people. If you download the non-smart maps, they have SMART tables in them. Maybe, and this is pure speculation, the non-SMART maps were tuned on SMART Evos and simply upload as non-SMART maps.Almost all EVO tuners that I know of, dyno tune in 3rd gear. And AFR results come from third gear pulls. It is puzzling to me that Shiv says in one of these links that third gear AFRs happen too quickly and are not accurate
Last edited by nj1266; Jul 25, 2006 at 10:26 AM.
here is a pics of a 3rd gear log with a off the shelf vishnu map, i believe 330+ (xede+full TBE). A litle to lean for my taste.
Last edited by Evo_Jay; Jul 25, 2006 at 10:28 AM.
Those posts above referenced by Jeff_Jeske Shiv does mention there is a lot reasons why we could be getting different AFR's -- location & type of wideband are big considerations.
Those that have SMART -- does anyone know what the SMART system targets for AFR's? That's assuming the wideband is calibrated correctly -- how many with SMART did the open air calibration?
Those that have SMART -- does anyone know what the SMART system targets for AFR's? That's assuming the wideband is calibrated correctly -- how many with SMART did the open air calibration?
the info i can share with you guys is the following
first of all we aint got a dyno for awd here in my country so what we do is roadtune.
so i decided to test my car against a bmw m3 and this was the outcome:
first race we started from a 1stgear roll and ended up to 4thgear i had the 03/04maps which in my car the afrs fluctuate between 11.0-11.7 he pulled 2 car lenghts in front of me.
so then i decided to switch the map for the 05models this maps have timing more agresive and the afr# fluctuate between 12.0-12.5 so we did the same race as the first time and this time i pulled 2cars infront of him this was 4car lenghts what i gain! its incredible what a tune can do to a car!
i will try in this following days to upload the 05maps to my xede and add 4% of fuel to the whole table and see if this makes a change in power or not? i have to wait for my friend whom has the m3 to decide when we will race again to see what the diff is??
also when you compare the 03/04 vrs the 05maps you see that 05maps take out more fuel but also take out more timing then the 03/04maps which take away less timing in the 1000-5000rpm range and take less fuel out of them this in turn states that the 05 maps are more agresive!
i have datalog 03/04 vrs 05maps and in none of the logs i have my car has had severe timing being pulled back!
what i do right know is to have the 03/04maps for daily use cause they are more detune and when i go racing i add the 05maps and i make sure i use a good quality fuel and i even add octane booster or race gas just to play it safe!
first of all we aint got a dyno for awd here in my country so what we do is roadtune.
so i decided to test my car against a bmw m3 and this was the outcome:
first race we started from a 1stgear roll and ended up to 4thgear i had the 03/04maps which in my car the afrs fluctuate between 11.0-11.7 he pulled 2 car lenghts in front of me.
so then i decided to switch the map for the 05models this maps have timing more agresive and the afr# fluctuate between 12.0-12.5 so we did the same race as the first time and this time i pulled 2cars infront of him this was 4car lenghts what i gain! its incredible what a tune can do to a car!
i will try in this following days to upload the 05maps to my xede and add 4% of fuel to the whole table and see if this makes a change in power or not? i have to wait for my friend whom has the m3 to decide when we will race again to see what the diff is??
also when you compare the 03/04 vrs the 05maps you see that 05maps take out more fuel but also take out more timing then the 03/04maps which take away less timing in the 1000-5000rpm range and take less fuel out of them this in turn states that the 05 maps are more agresive!
i have datalog 03/04 vrs 05maps and in none of the logs i have my car has had severe timing being pulled back!
what i do right know is to have the 03/04maps for daily use cause they are more detune and when i go racing i add the 05maps and i make sure i use a good quality fuel and i even add octane booster or race gas just to play it safe!
They 2005 maps are tuned with the 10.5 HS in mind. There are differences in all three maps...boost, fuel, and timing. Lets not forget that pulling fuel adds overall engine timing.
Your test is inconclusive.
For the people wondering what Shiv really wants.....visit the threads that post dyno, afr, and boost charts from Shiv custom tuned cars. None of the Shiv custom tuned cars run 12:1 AFR across the board on pump gas.
Your test is inconclusive.
For the people wondering what Shiv really wants.....visit the threads that post dyno, afr, and boost charts from Shiv custom tuned cars. None of the Shiv custom tuned cars run 12:1 AFR across the board on pump gas.
i have noticed something else with my wideband readings
lets say that iam in 3er gear at 2500rpms and then i floor it i see afrs number fluctuate between 11.0-11.7
then lets says i start in 2nd gear at 2500rpms i hit wot all the way to redline then i shift in to 3er gear all the way to red line also but this time looking at my afr#'s they become more rich then the first try they go as low as 10.5.
so why is this??? has anybody noted the difference i would like someone to try it out!
lets say that iam in 3er gear at 2500rpms and then i floor it i see afrs number fluctuate between 11.0-11.7
then lets says i start in 2nd gear at 2500rpms i hit wot all the way to redline then i shift in to 3er gear all the way to red line also but this time looking at my afr#'s they become more rich then the first try they go as low as 10.5.
so why is this??? has anybody noted the difference i would like someone to try it out!
Jeff, thanks for the info. So the target should be in the 11's -- I was curious on what the SMART system was aiming for -- if your wideband is calibrated incorrectly no matter what the map is since the AFR is being incorrectly read your tune is going to be incorrect.
Keep in mind, I do not have any hard data indicating my tune is lean as well. As most on this forum i'm here on a quest for knowledge
I enjoy learning about tuning and what the outcomes of good and bad tunes.
This has been one of the most informative threads I have read to date -- all around information is just as good as evo specific.
Keep in mind, I do not have any hard data indicating my tune is lean as well. As most on this forum i'm here on a quest for knowledge
I enjoy learning about tuning and what the outcomes of good and bad tunes. This has been one of the most informative threads I have read to date -- all around information is just as good as evo specific.
Last edited by Kronik; Jul 25, 2006 at 12:14 PM.
jeff do you think that the diff in the wideband readings are cause of what i asked above??
its different readings believe me if you are in 3erd gear and floor it you will get an X reading but if you hit full throttle in 2nd gear then change to 3erd gear your X reading will become different then before so why is this?
also cars that are at higher altitudes tend to lean out iam at 3300' so maybe this are the diff people are seeing?
its different readings believe me if you are in 3erd gear and floor it you will get an X reading but if you hit full throttle in 2nd gear then change to 3erd gear your X reading will become different then before so why is this?
also cars that are at higher altitudes tend to lean out iam at 3300' so maybe this are the diff people are seeing?
Originally Posted by jrsimon27
i have noticed something else with my wideband readings
lets say that iam in 3er gear at 2500rpms and then i floor it i see afrs number fluctuate between 11.0-11.7
then lets says i start in 2nd gear at 2500rpms i hit wot all the way to redline then i shift in to 3er gear all the way to red line also but this time looking at my afr#'s they become more rich then the first try they go as low as 10.5.
so why is this??? has anybody noted the difference i would like someone to try it out!
lets say that iam in 3er gear at 2500rpms and then i floor it i see afrs number fluctuate between 11.0-11.7
then lets says i start in 2nd gear at 2500rpms i hit wot all the way to redline then i shift in to 3er gear all the way to red line also but this time looking at my afr#'s they become more rich then the first try they go as low as 10.5.
so why is this??? has anybody noted the difference i would like someone to try it out!