2JZfan

iTrader: (5)

After a few frustrating months of trying to get all the drivability worked out on my Evo IX (WOT tuning is a piece of cake, it's everything else that is so hard to get right) I tried contacting every vendor I could think of to see if they would be willing to sell me a calibration to use as a reference. Every single one refused to take my money and simply was not interested unless I brought the car to them. I even offered to buy one that had everything above 100kpa zeroed out to eliminate any fears that I was just going to drop it in the car and "go racing". The closest vendor was over 500 miles away so I wasn't real interested in traveling, especially since I work 100 hours a week and this would be a multi-day trip. I also feel it's better to tune the car in it's native environment (altitude, weather, gas, etc.) so again, I wasn't interested in a cross-country trip. I should also point out that I have completed the AEM training class at AEM headquarters and have been tuning 2JZ-based vehicles with AEMs for about 4 years now. I wasn't expecting to have a lot of grief with this Evo but it has so far been nothing but frustration.

Anyway, I have so far invested about 30-40 hours in my maps and the car is "good" but not "great". My thought is that there must be many other people in the same boat as me and so I'm hoping that we can get a good thread going where many people contribute their calibrations along with comments detailing what is good and what is bad them them. AEMPro's compare function makes it very convenient to isolate a particular section of the calibration and see what others are doing differently. The goal would be that by pooling all of our experiences we could all benefit by having better tuned cars. And again, if people want to zero out timing maps in the boosted range or whatever, that is totally fine. I'll say it again, tuning WOT couldn't be any easier, it's the hundreds of drivability scenarios that are so challenging and yet most of those do not present any risk of actual engine damage so there's really not anything to lose by trying other people's settings.

I'll kick this off by posting my map along with a description of the vehicle and what is good/bad about the current cal.

Evo IX - stock motor, cams, intake, throttle body, etc.
780cc PTE injectors
AEM 3.5 bar map sensor
AEM IAT sensor
AEM boost solenoid
custom SC50R-based turbo kit (cast manifold, 3" TBE, Tial 44mm WG, HKS BOV)
Single walbro fuel pump
stock ignition

The good:
WOT, full boost (between 18 and 23psi) is around 11.5:1, pulls hard and smooth
Cruising is tuned pretty good for decent fuel economy (I've gotten around 22mpg at 85mph on highway trips)
Idle seems fine.
Start is "average" I'd say.

The bad:
Accel/decel has been the thorn in my side from day one. Any settings that allow for a smooth throttle blip or off-idle tip-in are way too rich for actual driving. The car bogs down from being < 10.0:1 rich. If I change things so that the "in gear" accel enrichment is fine, then the car bogs hard when leaving idle and free reving.

Other notes:
Map has been converted to an "ideal" boost correct strategy. In other words, 0 kpa is -100%, 100kpa is 0%, 200kpa is +100%, etc. On my Supra this leads to a map where most of the rows are the same assuming you are targetting the same AFR. If you want the 60kpa row to be leaner than the 100kpa row, you can copy the 100kpa row to the 60kpa row and take off 10% or so. But on this car, it's almost like the boost correct is doing nothing. The numbers in the 50kpa range are half of the numbers in the 100kpa range. That is unexplainable to me.

EP

I AGREE with you all the way

I have gone into many things like, and still on, I couldnt do my EVO9 yet because of the Tune issues:

My current setup:

- GT35 R
- 880cc Precision injectors
- AEM 3.5 bar map sensor
- AEM IAT sensor
- stock motor

AMS sent me a base map with my $13K invoice. They have sent me a base map that said it will get me going!!
the map didnt work at all.. the car smokes like hill!!
I have asked them to help and they asked me to get a tuner to do it for me!

here is the map if anyone is interested! i wont try it again!

AMS

iTrader: (3)

EP.

who have you asked to help?
Car smokes like hell? Have you or a tuner checked to make sure your MAP sensor is wired correctly? If you need help figuring that out please call the shop and ask for me or chris.
Also I see you don't have a link, but please don't share the basemaps, that's something we provide our customers who choose to buy an AEM EMS from us instead of buying it $50 over cost on EBAY. Again we'll provide you support as best as we can, that's what we do for our customers. Take advantage of that I'll make sure we get you going.

Thanks.


BTW it's hard to sell a basemap that will be a fix all for driveability. Each car is different and depending on injectors, throttlebody, cams, ect.. the accel fuel, cold start, driveability will be compromised and I wouldn't feel right charging someone for something that wasn't 100% right.


I've been thinking of putting on a seminar for AEM EMS tuning though, this is something that we can do in our new building and I'll put some serious thought into it. If something does happen you'll see it posted on our forum.


-Martin

alpha

iTrader: (3)

Very well said Martin Nice meeting you all again. You guys were mad cool We will be back in Orlando tonight. Getting ready to retune the car in a couple minutes. After that. Heading out that way

Aby@MIL.SPEC

iTrader: (161)

2jzfan-

i am not that impressed by the accel fueling on my aem either, buti have mine working ok.....it takes a lot of tweaking & as martin said, what works for him/you most likely wont work as good for someone else..

i know a lot of people like to use boost comp for fueling & that is ok from the cars i have driven when mowing through the gears @ WOT, but they dont drive as nice as cars that are set-up without using boost comp.

what does your thr. inj corr table look like? if i posted my accel fuel stuff, people would laugh! its crazy looking, but works for me.

GTVEVO

iTrader: (22)

Boost comp is a much better way of fueling for all types of driving. If you know how to use it correctly you can get far far more resolution into your map to acheive good driveability and high power. I too see alot of maps tuned for max power only with several things either not set at all or set incorrectly that affect the everyday driveability. When I decieded to switch to the AEM I dedicated myself to learn the system completely and without being headstrong becuase I knew there would be alot of people doing half the job and I couldn't trust it.

As for posting maps I doubt you will see any vendor do this becuase any one thing can be incorrect and if someone found it they would get flamed or blamed for a combonation of things. You really can't blame them becuase they have to protect themselves as they are still only human.

Also guys fueling in any sort should be fairly smooth, otherwise you have a tuning issue somewhere else or something else causing the fueling issue.


2JZfan - you have alot of work to do on your map I don't even know where to start due to my limited time this morning. I will come back and revisit.

2JZfan

iTrader: (5)

I keep hearing the excuse that it's basically impossible for an AEM map to be useful to anybody else, and yet almost all of the vendors will sell ecuflash maps via email. If those can work on a wide number of cars with similar configurations then so can AEM maps. That's why I thought a vendor would jump all over the chance to sell me a map without having to do any work, but no dice.

Re: boost comp... it is obviously the best way to set up the AEM and it shows how far off of the base cals are seeing as most of them don't use it. AEM bragged that the Evo IX base cal was their best base map ever for any application. And yet respected tuners on here have commented that many things had to be changed even for a totally stock Evo IX.

And in the case of my map, it's like boost comp is broken. According to my boost comp setup, I should have twice as much fuel at 100kpa as I do at 50kpa even with the same values in the fuel map. And yet, I have to make the 100kpa twice as big to achieve 13.0:1 at 100kpa and 14.5:1 at 50kpa. That is so far off from the theoretical way that this should work. Same deal in the boosted range, 17psi takes very different numbers than even just 23psi. On my Supra, I get away with nearly identical numbers from 14psi all the way to 32psi. Something just seems jacked up with this whole thing.

2JZfan

iTrader: (5)

WOT - I zeroed out the throttle corr table. I think that table is a crutch and 9 times out of 10 it is just used out of laziness by tuners (I certainly am not slamming you if you are using it!). What I mean is, I've seen a ton of maps where they use boost comp then throw the same values in every row of the fuel map, then depend on throttle corr to lean it out at lower TPS values that they assume will be for cruising only. But on a turbo car, you can be going up a hill at only 15% throttle and yet still have 20psi of boost - especially with the ultra-quick spooling turbos we have on our cars... low TPS doesn't mean low load. That's why I use rows with the same "shape" but scale them so that real load rows would give 15:1, 100kpa rows would give 13:1, high boost rows would give 11.5:1, etc. I can appreciate that a small amount of tweaking from this table could be useful, but I think it is used way too heavily in many cases.

GTVEVO - I'd appreciate hearing any comments you have.

ExViTermini

iTrader: (25)

Obviously you do not understand the significant differences between the AEM and the stock ecu.

Stock ecu the tuner has the ability to alter about 12 different things, maybe a few more. The EMS the tuner can change 1200 different things. The stock ecu does most of the work for you because it has had thousands and thousands of hours put into it to perfect it.

With the EMS the tuner would have to do the same thing, as for every one event, there are roughly 4-6 tables to adjust to make the car react properly. There is no way in hell one map for one car that runs pretty good, is going to make another car run flawless. It might run OK at best, but never more, without more adjustment.

2JZfan

iTrader: (5)

This post makes no sense. First off all, there's a hell of lot more than 12 things you can change with ecuflash. Secondly, are you telling me that when AMS or somebody tunes an AEM based vehicle they start out by zeroing all the tables and options and then tuning each one from scratch? That's retarded. Obviously, they have their map that works perfectly on one car and then they tweak the necessary things to adapt it to another car. Years ago, I spent a couple of weeks tuning the AEM on my Supra got everything perfect. Since then, I have put my cal into about 6 other 2JZ based vehicles and it only takes about 30 minutes of massaging to get things just right. Different injectors, different turbos, different cams, different intake manifolds, but it sure isn't like starting off from scratch. My car makes 820rwhp, but I have used that same cal as a great starting point on a Supra making 420rwhp. And I have never had to tweak the accel enrichment tables because they are all percentage based. So with larger or smaller injectors things are automatically scaled accordingly.

GTVEVO

iTrader: (22)

2JZfan, are you sure your map sensor is working correctly, the reason I ask is from what I can tell boost comp does look to be set up but you say the car/map tune doesn't react well to it as it should. I am wondering if the map sensor isn't work correctly so when this happens the ems reverts to TPS to Load table so the car can actually run incase of fault.

Just wanted to be sure you have verifyed when to turn the key to the on position that it does infact read 0psi on the ems and not -14 or so.

GTVEVO

iTrader: (22)

Next first all of the stock cals with the AEM are crap, they are just to get you started and that is it but many of them aren't even close to what they should be. Why aren't they, I have several ideas and it could be any of them but there is no need to slander.

The first thing to always check on the stock cal before tuning is to be sure you base trims are set especially the AIR TEMP FUEL CORR TABLE. I have seen many of maps and maybe one of them have had this table even close to being correct. If you can't set this table just don't tune it at all because this table changes everything. I see allot of maps that compensate for colder weather and most of them are incorrectly, hardly any of them compensate at all for warmer weather. When you hear people pissed because they have to always retune their car this is one of the biggest reasons.

Now keep in mind since we are only using air temp and pressure to figure fuel and not along with barrow you have to figure it raw and static.

I can't believe I am doing this because several of vendors should be paying me for it but I will post a proper air temp table and it should be very close for everyone. These values were figured upon air density differences compared to 86deg F.


-40 30.08
-22 24.61
-4 19.92
14 15.23
32 10.94
50 7.03
68 3.52
86 0
104 -3.12
122 -5.86
140 -8.20
158 -10.55
176 -12.89
194 -14.84
212 -16.41
230 -18.36
248 -20.31




Your welcome......GTVEVO

2JZfan

iTrader: (5)

GTVEVO - yes, the map sensor is working and calibrated properly... motor off is always 97-99kpa... idle is 35-37kpa... and of course under boost I see kpa values that correspond to what I see on the boost gauge. You can sit there in the fuel map after hitting the space bar and see the "cursor" track as you blip the gas... definitely getting a good map sensor signal. Good thought though, you are definitely correct that I would be pulling my hair out eternally without a proper map signal.

Re: the air temp correction: from what I have seen many times the correction is set up to be "ideal" up to about 90-100 deg F air temp. After that additional fuel is added beyond what the formula would call for in order to provide a safety net when IAT's increase. My table is almost identical to what you posted up to 90 deg and then mine levels off (the AEM provided base map actually started going positive again which was way too rich). I've used a similar table on my Supra and not had to retune between a 90 deg F day and a 25 deg F day so it can't be too far off. I've also seen numerous posts on the AEM forums discussing how the "ideal" numbers that PV=nRT would give you don't work out so well in the real world, but again, based on the consistancy that my Supra has always had I have never really spent much time tweaking this. If I could just get the damn accel/decel fueling correct for all conditions everything would be fine. The WOT stuff is just fine now when it's 15 degrees outside and it was fine this summer when it was 100 degrees, so I can't complain there. Cold start and idle have been fine throughout all types of weather. Cruise is ok too.

Thanks

evo_08

iTrader: (1)

i saw sean ivey send my friend aniel pagan a map via email that was allmost dead on,aniel did a couple of logs send the logs back to sean and the car was perfect.

2JZfan

iTrader: (5)

Sean Ivey was actually the first person I contacted about a mail order map because of all the glowing reviews I have read about his work. He said they didn't do that. I'll contact him again to see if he's changed his policy... I've got "money in hand" as they say, just can't get anybody to take it. Very odd situation for a consumer