Cold start and E85 calibration!
Newbie
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 5
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From: El Paso, TX
Hi, I have a 88 Acura Legend with a NSX engine and tranny swap, I got installed the AEM EMS with a CTSC, I'm also having this cold start problem with the AEM but I am running 92 octane gas, do you think this settings will help on my application?
I thank you in advance HERE is a link to my project forum thread.
I thank you in advance HERE is a link to my project forum thread.
I have Jake's config for the 1600 injectors. I'll try to post the info when I get some time.
This is for E85 only and will only make your cold start worse.
Hi, I have a 88 Acura Legend with a NSX engine and tranny swap, I got installed the AEM EMS with a CTSC, I'm also having this cold start problem with the AEM but I am running 92 octane gas, do you think this settings will help on my application?
I thank you in advance HERE is a link to my project forum thread.
I thank you in advance HERE is a link to my project forum thread.
Newbie
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
From: El Paso, TX
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Joined: Jan 2009
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From: Pac West
Hello I am new here but have been running on E85 for some time and would like to suggest a alternate cold start for E85 that I have been using.
But first I WOULD LIKE TO STATE I AM NOT A TUNER!
These are just my personal settings and suggestions I have had after messing with E85 for the last 3 years.
One thing I have found is there is often more then one way to get the same result and this is about the 16th different setting I have used for cold starts with E85 and so far the best.
I run a 2g DSM but have found that this basic style of cold starting has worked well on everything from dsm to honda.
With this setup I don't have to do the fuel pump prime shut off then try to start, I just turn the key on and start works first try down to currently 17 degree water temp after sitting outside in 12 degree weather overnight.
specs are:
2G dsm 1G swap
AEM EMS 1310 setup for speed density
3.5 bar map
GM AIT
EVO 8 parts
Turbo, Pistons and Evo 8 Front mount intercooler
Stock cams
Stock intake
Stock throttle body
Single 255
Stock lines and FPR
880cc injectors
19psi with Stock EVO 8 16g twin scroll turbo with custom equal length manifold
First I would recommend opening up the manual and reading what ALL the cold start tables do.
I am also running on a 35 micro/bit scale but that's were my setup starts to differ.
So I guess starting from the top,
Crank Adv; this is the amount of desired advance while in cranking mode .
I run 26.95 this will vary slightly for your set up cams etc..
Ign vs. start time; This is the amount of timing set to achieve quick starts
Start between 4 to 5 degrees and taper off every 1 to 2 seconds at about 1 * with different cams injectors etc this will change
Crank Min RPM; This is the min RPM before ANY fuel or spark will be delivered.
I started at the standard 50 but ended up at 37 this seemed to provide slightly quicker starts with no other ill effects
Crank exit rpm; This is the rpm at which the fuel and timing switch from cranking condition to run condition which is the base maps PLUS any other trim tables that may apply i.e. warm up enrichment, start extra, ign vs. start etc...
I start at 375 but find 400 and 425 work better for some. This just gives a little extra rpm/time before switching to the run/rpm tables and may provide a more stable idle1 or 2 seconds after the engine starts.
Rpm offset vs. start table This is the extra RPM added over time to achieve a stable idle I start at 300 for the first 3 seconds and taper off from there some motors need more (as much as 500 plus) This has to do with your idle target base table vs. coolant temp I have mine set at 1300 rpm @ 32* tapering to idle @ 176 this is also were I have O2 feed back set to start (176*)
Crank inject all; injects fuel above rpm min before cam sync
Turn this on
Fuel pump prime;
1.55 is fine however I have mine set longer at 5 seconds as I don't have to wait for the pump to shut off to start the motor.
Crank injector time table;
This is the amount of fuel that is injected upon cam sync after the rpm min is met I set this by hot start increasing until I started to get rich backfire out the exhaust and then backing it down(leaner)until it started consistent with no other tables applied I ended up with a base of 0% throttle= 205 This will also vary with injector size and setup
Initial crank pulse table;
This is the amount of fuel that is injected as soon as rpm is seen but regardless of cam sync.
This is the main table that will effect quick starts and will vary for size of your injectors as well as other factors but generally the larger the injector the smaller the value and vice versa I am using almost double the value I was using on my 1600's and will vary depending on Injector spray pattern size etc..
A good starting point for 880's at 32* is about 75520 to 101120 and richen/lean from there. At 176* I use 3840 and 194* 2560
If you keep your car garaged it seems you can run slightly less then if it sits outside. I have no solid reason why? But when I originally set this my car was garaged after I started parking it outside and had to increase it at the same coolant temps/air temps maybe it cools faster and stays cold longer?
So now you have got the engine to start but we need it to continue to run! This is were the warm up enrichment, start extra, ign vs. start come into play
Warm up enrichment table; this is the amount of fuel that is applied in addition to the base fuel map, after the engine leaves the exit rpm and is dependent on coolant temp.
I set this according to temp versus AFR so if you are using a gasoline wideband O2 set it that the engine runs between 13.0 at 32* @ 39.06 % to 13.8 at 122* @ 15.62% and above. (convert to E85 numbers if your WBO2 supports it)
You should not apply this at normal operating temp (176* and above)
This also helps if you try driving the car before it has fully warmed up I have left on 88* degree coolant temps and it runs just as it does on gasoline! Some engines may need slightly more or less depending on setup.
Now with your warm up enrichment set so your AFR's are constant 13 to 13.8(gas AFR), your Start extra will now also be consistent and very low percentages 4% to 7 % across the board
Start extra vs. Temp table; This is the amount of fuel that is added when the engine exceeds the crank exit RPM and is taken out over the start extra decay table. This is in addition to the fuel map and warm up enrichment table all of which effect each other so its a good idea to get a good base AFR and idle before adjusting these.
Mine start at 6.84% @ 32* 5.86 % from 50* to 104* and 4.88% from 122* to 176*
With this I can get into the car turn the ignition to the "ON" position. Let the pump prime for a moment and turn the key to "Start" engine usually starts right off but if it rotates more then 1 second it needs to have enough Crank inject time table to fire after the initial crank pulse table is gone.
Hope this option helps anyone trying E85!
But first I WOULD LIKE TO STATE I AM NOT A TUNER!
These are just my personal settings and suggestions I have had after messing with E85 for the last 3 years.
One thing I have found is there is often more then one way to get the same result and this is about the 16th different setting I have used for cold starts with E85 and so far the best.
I run a 2g DSM but have found that this basic style of cold starting has worked well on everything from dsm to honda.
With this setup I don't have to do the fuel pump prime shut off then try to start, I just turn the key on and start works first try down to currently 17 degree water temp after sitting outside in 12 degree weather overnight.
specs are:
2G dsm 1G swap
AEM EMS 1310 setup for speed density
3.5 bar map
GM AIT
EVO 8 parts
Turbo, Pistons and Evo 8 Front mount intercooler
Stock cams
Stock intake
Stock throttle body
Single 255
Stock lines and FPR
880cc injectors
19psi with Stock EVO 8 16g twin scroll turbo with custom equal length manifold
First I would recommend opening up the manual and reading what ALL the cold start tables do.
I am also running on a 35 micro/bit scale but that's were my setup starts to differ.
So I guess starting from the top,
Crank Adv; this is the amount of desired advance while in cranking mode .
I run 26.95 this will vary slightly for your set up cams etc..
Ign vs. start time; This is the amount of timing set to achieve quick starts
Start between 4 to 5 degrees and taper off every 1 to 2 seconds at about 1 * with different cams injectors etc this will change
Crank Min RPM; This is the min RPM before ANY fuel or spark will be delivered.
I started at the standard 50 but ended up at 37 this seemed to provide slightly quicker starts with no other ill effects
Crank exit rpm; This is the rpm at which the fuel and timing switch from cranking condition to run condition which is the base maps PLUS any other trim tables that may apply i.e. warm up enrichment, start extra, ign vs. start etc...
I start at 375 but find 400 and 425 work better for some. This just gives a little extra rpm/time before switching to the run/rpm tables and may provide a more stable idle1 or 2 seconds after the engine starts.
Rpm offset vs. start table This is the extra RPM added over time to achieve a stable idle I start at 300 for the first 3 seconds and taper off from there some motors need more (as much as 500 plus) This has to do with your idle target base table vs. coolant temp I have mine set at 1300 rpm @ 32* tapering to idle @ 176 this is also were I have O2 feed back set to start (176*)
Crank inject all; injects fuel above rpm min before cam sync
Turn this on
Fuel pump prime;
1.55 is fine however I have mine set longer at 5 seconds as I don't have to wait for the pump to shut off to start the motor.
Crank injector time table;
This is the amount of fuel that is injected upon cam sync after the rpm min is met I set this by hot start increasing until I started to get rich backfire out the exhaust and then backing it down(leaner)until it started consistent with no other tables applied I ended up with a base of 0% throttle= 205 This will also vary with injector size and setup
Initial crank pulse table;
This is the amount of fuel that is injected as soon as rpm is seen but regardless of cam sync.
This is the main table that will effect quick starts and will vary for size of your injectors as well as other factors but generally the larger the injector the smaller the value and vice versa I am using almost double the value I was using on my 1600's and will vary depending on Injector spray pattern size etc..
A good starting point for 880's at 32* is about 75520 to 101120 and richen/lean from there. At 176* I use 3840 and 194* 2560
If you keep your car garaged it seems you can run slightly less then if it sits outside. I have no solid reason why? But when I originally set this my car was garaged after I started parking it outside and had to increase it at the same coolant temps/air temps maybe it cools faster and stays cold longer?
So now you have got the engine to start but we need it to continue to run! This is were the warm up enrichment, start extra, ign vs. start come into play
Warm up enrichment table; this is the amount of fuel that is applied in addition to the base fuel map, after the engine leaves the exit rpm and is dependent on coolant temp.
I set this according to temp versus AFR so if you are using a gasoline wideband O2 set it that the engine runs between 13.0 at 32* @ 39.06 % to 13.8 at 122* @ 15.62% and above. (convert to E85 numbers if your WBO2 supports it)
You should not apply this at normal operating temp (176* and above)
This also helps if you try driving the car before it has fully warmed up I have left on 88* degree coolant temps and it runs just as it does on gasoline! Some engines may need slightly more or less depending on setup.
Now with your warm up enrichment set so your AFR's are constant 13 to 13.8(gas AFR), your Start extra will now also be consistent and very low percentages 4% to 7 % across the board
Start extra vs. Temp table; This is the amount of fuel that is added when the engine exceeds the crank exit RPM and is taken out over the start extra decay table. This is in addition to the fuel map and warm up enrichment table all of which effect each other so its a good idea to get a good base AFR and idle before adjusting these.
Mine start at 6.84% @ 32* 5.86 % from 50* to 104* and 4.88% from 122* to 176*
With this I can get into the car turn the ignition to the "ON" position. Let the pump prime for a moment and turn the key to "Start" engine usually starts right off but if it rotates more then 1 second it needs to have enough Crank inject time table to fire after the initial crank pulse table is gone.
Hope this option helps anyone trying E85!
Last edited by nissmo127; Dec 24, 2009 at 03:10 PM.
Newbie
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 5
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From: El Paso, TX
^ Nice very nice, I can see right away all of the time and effort to this well done, you should post it in the AEM forums, this is where most of cold start questions are, I also came with a good setting for the NSX with 93 Octane gas (I'm not a tuner either) but for cold start it just required lots of tries and time to achieve the best setting.
Newbie
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 15
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From: Pac West
^ Nice very nice, I can see right away all of the time and effort to this well done, you should post it in the AEM forums, this is where most of cold start questions are, I also came with a good setting for the NSX with 93 Octane gas (I'm not a tuner either) but for cold start it just required lots of tries and time to achieve the best setting.
I to often hear complaints about the EMS because of cold start issues that people deal with even from "professional tuners". There are several in town that start like a 49 chevy with bad carbs and often die 2 or 3 times before catching an idle and this is on gasoline after paying $500++ to have them tuned!
I actually had a local tuner look at me weird (after a 22* cold start) and then ask "your still on E85?" I replied "Yes an AEM does not have to start like a POS"
I don't get to the aem forums much but I will post a link.
Oh also I forgot to point out when trying to set the warm up enrichment table I found it was convenient to have the Wideband O2 wired to a switch with "CONSTANT POWER" or make sure your accessory power is "HOT WHILE STARTING"
They need time to bring the O2 up to operating temp to get a accurate reading and some have a delay before sending a reading.
This is reset after losing power (most switched power or accessory power is not ""HOT" while cranking)
By having it on a switch when I got into the car first thing I'd do would be turn on the wideband so it was ready to go as soon as I put the key in the ignition and did not lose power during cranking mode.
When your car has a very cold coolant temp it takes a matter of seconds to go from 32* to 50* and up
Last edited by nissmo127; Dec 24, 2009 at 03:03 PM.
Newbie
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
From: Queens, NYC
Hi, was wondering if you have anything for cold starts using gasoline yet? I've tried your settings and its helped quite a bit but it seems like the car starts and dies almost immediately Any more info would be great thanks!
Of course the settings are calibrated for E85, but will work for gas just with less %'s to each tables. You will have to lessen the tables down a bit for gas but they should work. Like I said previously once you get the crank injector time table down for hot starts and somewhat cold starts then the engine start/advance start/Initial Crank Pulse table/table is the one that you wanna tweak on for extremely cold starts.
Engine start is engine start regardless of fuel, it just takes tweaking on each fuel you use.
I will be doing a cold start using strictly gasoline here soon, so I can post the calibrations for the cold start for gasoline only as well.
As far as how fast it warms up, with it idling at 1500rpm during warm up and slowly comes back down to 1000rpm when fully warm. It takes about 5-8 minutes to fully warm up. With E85 it just takes a tad longer to warm up since it's ethanol.
The Initial Crank Pulse table really controls how the injectors act during cranking, not so much how much fuel it's dumping but rather how they open/close vs your crank injector time table (witch is your base starting table IE how much fuel is being dumped), By upping this table it increases how fast the injectors operate, or so it seems. Either way, it seems to be working regardless. It doesn't seem to have the "flood" effect as the crank injector time table does. Again the Initial Crank Pulse table improves the over all starting of the car.
Engine start is engine start regardless of fuel, it just takes tweaking on each fuel you use.
I will be doing a cold start using strictly gasoline here soon, so I can post the calibrations for the cold start for gasoline only as well.
As far as how fast it warms up, with it idling at 1500rpm during warm up and slowly comes back down to 1000rpm when fully warm. It takes about 5-8 minutes to fully warm up. With E85 it just takes a tad longer to warm up since it's ethanol.
The Initial Crank Pulse table really controls how the injectors act during cranking, not so much how much fuel it's dumping but rather how they open/close vs your crank injector time table (witch is your base starting table IE how much fuel is being dumped), By upping this table it increases how fast the injectors operate, or so it seems. Either way, it seems to be working regardless. It doesn't seem to have the "flood" effect as the crank injector time table does. Again the Initial Crank Pulse table improves the over all starting of the car.
Newbie
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 5
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From: El Paso, TX
Newbie
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
From: Queens, NYC
Thanks, I've actually tried using your calibrations and so far I've gotten the engine to start but it cant idle and stalls about a second or two after it fires up so Im thinking it may be the warmup enrichment table I may have to adjust. Im using the stock evo 550cc injectors so I figure I may have to take out some fuel? Anyone with some suggestions please feel free to speak up =)
Hi I have some pretty good settings for gas I made for the NSX, they might work for you can find them HERE the AEM forum
Thanks, I've actually tried using your calibrations and so far I've gotten the engine to start but it cant idle and stalls about a second or two after it fires up so Im thinking it may be the warmup enrichment table I may have to adjust. Im using the stock evo 550cc injectors so I figure I may have to take out some fuel? Anyone with some suggestions please feel free to speak up =)
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6
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From: Maryville, Tn
This is an excellent write up. I haven't messed around or read up on my AEM too much, but after reading this thread and the evo 8 start up sticky, it opens my eyes on why it takes forever for my car to crank over sometimes. I hope playing around with some of the settings that everyone has posted helps.
Saw the video on YouTube the other day... it's convenient because I have a setup with 950s and 35 mb/s. A little bit of what I had setup was close to what was suggested here. I'm going to give it another shot tomorrow.
I'm not sure if Jake (OP) is still around or not - any chance of getting the idle portion of your fueling map? Just for a comparison. It took me a long time to figure out that the AEM likes a bunch of fuel there, and then use the throttle trims to offset it. Just curious to see where yours are (if you're around 2 years later now haha).
On a slightly related note... what sort of cold start oil pressure is anyone seeing? Seems to be pegging over 100psi when it's <40*F. Thinking thinner oil is necessary.
I'm not sure if Jake (OP) is still around or not - any chance of getting the idle portion of your fueling map? Just for a comparison. It took me a long time to figure out that the AEM likes a bunch of fuel there, and then use the throttle trims to offset it. Just curious to see where yours are (if you're around 2 years later now haha).
On a slightly related note... what sort of cold start oil pressure is anyone seeing? Seems to be pegging over 100psi when it's <40*F. Thinking thinner oil is necessary.
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