hagakure

iTrader: (2)

Point well taken...the comment was a bit harsh, but Jeeez...
I wish we could just stay on the vehicle dynamics and leave the other stuff behind. It's not like my comment helped though. Bad thing aboutt he internet, something about typing sometimes disables the editor that SHOULD intervene between the brain and the fingers...

Percy

GT35REVO

lolrof that was funny.

ricardon

iTrader: (1)

Yeah that was a pretty funny comment, serious, I laughed. What you failed to mention is that he won the OTC. So he drove off the course...A BUNCH OF TIMES. Guess what, he still does and will continue to do so. It's called pushing the limits, and there's nothing wrong with that if you either A) Accept the consequences of what happens when you push the limits or B) YOU WIN THE FREAKING EVENT! It's all good Lambtron, I can tell by your posts that you have no idea what you are talking about in regards to track-related stuff. Now that's not a personal attack, you just don't know. I won't post in a knitting forum and tell the people there that they can't make sweaters right...because I don't have a clue.

My observations relating to the subject at hand, if anyone cares: Trail braking was the only way I could get the car to turn when it was out of the box stock. I futzed around with several different line choices, pressures, camber settings yadda yadda yadda. I always would end up coming back to trail braking to get the car to go where I needed it to go. Note, that I said when the car was BONE stock. Now that the car is set up to oversteer (actually it's really very nuetral now) I find that trail braking is a painfully slow way around the track. It took about half of a track day for me to get comfortable with the car again, and I tried everything, and once i stopped trail braking and "backing the car into the turns" times dropped, and they dropped rather significantly. Look, I'm not a race car driver, nor an engineer, and all I can speak on is personal experience and what has worked "FOR ME". That has led me to the conclusion that trail braking is not the way to go with an open front dif EVO.

chronohunter

iTrader: (1)

Please go back and read siegelracing and my posts on this. Just because it "feels good" does not make it fast and you are making you car unstable in transitions which will slow you even more. Drive and set-up your car any way you like but realize not one well set-up and well driven nose heavy race car is like that. Your car has LESS margin for error than a pro driver in his car! Think about it

chronohunter

iTrader: (1)

His car could be faster and safer if he paid attention to physics. You don't have to crash even if you are pushing damn hard, this is my hole point about his (I won't say RRE's anymore, sorry Mike) set-up...no margin for error and slower than what is physically possible from the platform

OTC was not hard to win there was huge attrition (ourselves included in our class). Not to take anything away from Robi he earned it (he was consistant throughout the event).

chronohunter

iTrader: (1)

Thank you Mike I have been waiting for you guys to jump in. I apologize for assuming that this was RRE's set-up philosophy and not realizing it is a Robi thing. Did you caution Robi about the negative aspects of his set-up? Do you give them what they think is the fastest or what you know is the physically the fastest for the EVO platform? Could YOU (or John when you unchain him from the welder ) explain to Robi where we are coming from? I think he needs to hear it from someone who he does not consider a competitor.

chronohunter

iTrader: (1)

Yes but he does trail brake in anything he drives including a rear biased 360 which requires a lot less than the EVO. Forget about that one...

How about Emile? He is also one of my instructors (part time), he was driving an EVO and he also was several seconds faster than you. O and yes he trail brakes

You also need to answer my question about whether your car understeers at turn in and mid corner in those low speed corners at "Streets"

Thanks, lets keep this going it helps us all

robi

iTrader: (24)

It ended up in your quoted section.. the answer is no @ turn in the car is slightly loose just off the brake and under light throttle . this progressively tightens up as more power is dialed in comepletely neutral for 50% of the throttle range...Oh quoting Emile after riding with me for test laps in my car "so thats how you keep the car from overloading the front tire and keep the car from pushing on entry" We then made MAJOR changes to the Sparco EVO's baseline setup he drove my car while they were doing it trail braked a few times said "this car doesn't like/need to be trailbraked to get it to rotate does it? and Man this car turns in great under part throttle you can get in the throttle way earlier than in ours" We then finished the setup on the Sparco evo (it was a test day they invited me to) and Emile started going 2 seconds faster the very next session. Prior to that I/Emile/Scott were turning effectively the same times but they were on 255 hoosiers to my 235 ra1's... Ref. post #31 this thread and you wouldn't have asked the question. (BTW Scott, Mike, and Emile thanked me for the set-up suggestions after winning the limited AWD Time attack. Just one more reason Sparco's a class act with first class people in their organization.) All the other High HP"roadracing EVOs were there for this event where was the Red Rocket? Don't tell me another head gasket? And don't go to shiv's lie that he wasn't invited. I've confirmed from two of the people passing out the invites he was. Care to shead some light ??

nebolic

iTrader: (1)

I've never tracked my Evo before, though I do ride motorcycles and I do trail brake my bikes. (Though I never knew what I was doing on my bike was called trail braking until now). Anyhow, just wanted to say that different people have different styles of driving, if they find one way that's comfortable for them, that's that. In the end, it's whoever crosses the finish line first. However, thanks to Robi, Chronohunter, and Siegelracing for some interesting read. One of the longest threads that i've read so far on EvoM that i was actually interested in. Quick question though, what places more stress on the brakes? Trail braking or Robi's method.

Nebo

robi

iTrader: (24)

So Paul the next time I need to swap a EVO motor overnight and then drive 6 hours to get to the next event to win you got my back? right? ;-). and the T-3 class had more cars running at the end than any 3 other classes. read the GRM on it "Their EVO had secured the win after what could only be described as a thrash of heroic proportions."
Remember we were first after Sears and even without a start we were locked into second and Kozarov/Flaherty needed to win at Button willow to beat us (They did win at Buttonwillow).
GRM continues,
"Their dedication and complete disregard for the human body's requirement for sleep rewarded them with the top spot in T-3 by one slim point"
So I guess your definition of "not hard" and mine (and it seems like the rest of the world) is as different as the way we drive our cars...
But then you mainly just drive right?
PS if I'm this determined to win do you ever think I'd use a more inefficent way to get my EVO around the track...PS I drive to the fastest datalogging so keep on going slower ;-).

robi

iTrader: (24)

Longer and softer on the brakes builds more heat also "backing it in" sheads a bunch of speed as long as you keep the tires within their slip margin.

chronohunter

iTrader: (1)

Damn that Emile, he is so fired! I (I have actually never met him but he has worked for me, one of my instructors confirmed for me that he does trail brake, usually ). I should have done my homework on that one Now I have to show Emile the light too, you're creating more work for me . Your way is a fun, seductive way to drive/set-up a car but my point all along is that it is not the fastest or the safest. You still have reduced to much grip to gain your balance. Add grip to the front don't take it away from the rear

If you are talking about Ultimate Street Car. We were definitely not invited to the event. It was a political nightmare. I am just a guy that wants to drive and not being allowed to sucked. As far as Time Attack The car was not ready (and was not really ready for OTC even). I talked Shiv into doing this stuff pretty late in the game so it's not his fault really. We are going to run everything we can and please let us know if there is an event coming up that we need to be at. I am way out of the Ca. road racing scene being out here in Co.

You said "the car is slightly loose just off the brake and under light throttle" so is the brake release happening after turn in? if so you are trail braking (just a little).


“this progressively tightens up as more power is dialed in completely neutral for 50% of the throttle range". At what point in the corner? which "50%"? Could you add steering/vehicle position information to this please (for the whole corner)

Did you re-read the Race Car Engineering article? It is definitely obviously pro trail braking (like all modern racing technique)

GT35REVO

I have to agree with you on the softer = hotter, you get on then off the brakes don't brake like your going off a exit on the interstate. One thing I will say Robi is I am not pro, I have been tracking for 7 year in different cars, 1994 TT Rx-7, NSX, and now a EVO and trail braking works well for me in a lot of places. It keeps you from coasting into a turn. Just think of this on the track you need to be on the gas or on the brakes at ALL times, if you are coasting into a turn next time add more speed and scrub that off with trail braking.

chronohunter

iTrader: (1)

If you keep them within their "slip margin" how are you going to use that to slow you down let alone "back it in?" Are you coasting during this faze or on the gas?

Definatly right about long soft braking..yuk. Puts a lot of extra heat in the system.

chronohunter

iTrader: (1)

No, I honestly believe you absolutely believe your way is the best. Why else would we be having this debate!?!

That is my obvious challenge to take a guy who has been very successful in his world to realize that there is more to this than meets the eye.

I keep going back to the point that there is no professional support for your ideas on set-up. Your set-up has worked so far against who you have faced. You must continue to get faster if you are to stay on top (agreed?). I am (and others) are trying to explain how you can do it. Wouldn’t you love to add a bunch of grip to the rear of you car (increasing it’s overall grip level=corner speed) without adding understeer (you can't say no to that!). That is what can be done with this technique. Also you have complete control of your tire temps. Trail braking is just a tool for the driver to use.