Did a few logs tonight...
I'm not sure how you are tracking your boost levels, but for reference I run 23 psi at ~250 load as logged by the JDM MAP sensor. Your load levels look more like 20 and not 22. It's not a huge difference, but your gauge might be a couple of psi off.
Good luck getting the boost to hold. As stated above, MBC's are still fairly bad about taper. I just tuned a car using the Greddy EBC and it held boost great (23 psi spike and 21.5 to RL). I personally use the stock solenoid and can hold 20.5 to RL even with the stock cat in place. I can hold more with some VVT tweaks but the logs show power loss there ...
Good luck getting the boost to hold. As stated above, MBC's are still fairly bad about taper. I just tuned a car using the Greddy EBC and it held boost great (23 psi spike and 21.5 to RL). I personally use the stock solenoid and can hold 20.5 to RL even with the stock cat in place. I can hold more with some VVT tweaks but the logs show power loss there ...
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...2FyHf_ZZpnABMg
I have been throwing the idea around of getting the aem tru boost controller and ditching the mbc, so maybe I will if it would help hold more boost longer to redline.
He communicated it wrong and you read into it too much. Which is the major problem in this thread overall. He has (I can) run it holding to redline, but he currently (I run) runs it tapering to 19.
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You know, I have to agree with Mellon here. I kind of feel like everyone is attacking him in regards to the EGT probe. I have one in my car, and yeah, I actually do look at it all the time as a "reality" check. I know that EGT's aren't the most reliable, I know they aren't a good way to tune, etc. But, what is so wrong in knowing one more thing in how your engine is running? Down here in Charleston, SC, I can see sometimes a 100*-200* difference in EGT's based on the weather here. Just by noticing that, I would make a logical ASSumption that the car, based on the weather can have a more ideal tune due to the weather changes here.
I don't see why mellon is being "attacked" (Term used very loosly) for suggesting an EGT. What is so wrong in knowing one more engine operating parameter? There certainly is no harm in knowing.
I don't see why mellon is being "attacked" (Term used very loosly) for suggesting an EGT. What is so wrong in knowing one more engine operating parameter? There certainly is no harm in knowing.
He didnt just seem to be suggesting to have it there to look at. He was suggesting (as it appears to me) that you tune by it. This is ridivulous when we have the factory knock sensor to tune by, WB's to tune by, etc. Mellon brought some of that on himself from all appearances.
JohnBradley, how in the world did you come up with that assumption.. I just said about 19 different ways in this thread that it's useful to reference it to make sure that you aren't burning up the engine when you're using a very lean AFR and significantly retarded timing. I never said you should tune by EGT's and forget everything else.. cmon, quit putting words in mouth
Ok but who in this thread is talking about running a lean afr with significant retarded timing? Some of your responses have not been relevant to the topic because what your saying about egt's isnt even being discussed.
I can send you my timing map if you think im running low timing numbers to be able to have a 12:1 afr? because I assure you that isnt the case.....
I can send you my timing map if you think im running low timing numbers to be able to have a 12:1 afr? because I assure you that isnt the case.....
Ok but who in this thread is talking about running a lean afr with significant retarded timing? Some of your responses have not been relevant to the topic because what your saying about egt's isnt even being discussed.
I can send you my timing map if you think im running low timing numbers to be able to have a 12:1 afr? because I assure you that isnt the case.....
I can send you my timing map if you think im running low timing numbers to be able to have a 12:1 afr? because I assure you that isnt the case.....
I believe in running a lean AFR such as 11.5 in 4th, with timing tuned to that AFR, not retarded or advanced.
I've experiemented with
4rd gear pull, same night, just a change in the AFR's
11.0 AFR's + X timing
VS
11.5 AFR + X timing
There is more power to be made with the leaner AFR with appropriate timing.
Its a known fact that fuel will burn most efficiently at 12.00-13.00 AFR.
I've experiemented with
4rd gear pull, same night, just a change in the AFR's
11.0 AFR's + X timing
VS
11.5 AFR + X timing
There is more power to be made with the leaner AFR with appropriate timing.
Its a known fact that fuel will burn most efficiently at 12.00-13.00 AFR.
Last edited by Ph3n1x; Jul 20, 2007 at 12:33 PM.
In the downpipe, before the cat(tp) and its an lc-1...
amen
amen
Phenix, you are 100% correct. But, I think the question some of us have is how in the world is Trav running .5 - .8 AFR leaner than others with the same (or slightly more) timing advance and avoiding knock?
As an example, in 4th gear I'm currently at 11.0 and 12* advance @ 7000. Taking away any fuel or adding 1* of advance will bring on knock. According to Travs logs, he's at 12.2 and 14* at 7000 and has no knock (3rd gear). This is what I can't wrap my head around. Honestly, I want to think that the knock filters may have been modified but this doesn't seem to be the case.
Trav, I look forward to your 4th gear logs. If your methods can be used in 4th and get the same results then you are correct and we are all leaving a lot of power on the table.
As an example, in 4th gear I'm currently at 11.0 and 12* advance @ 7000. Taking away any fuel or adding 1* of advance will bring on knock. According to Travs logs, he's at 12.2 and 14* at 7000 and has no knock (3rd gear). This is what I can't wrap my head around. Honestly, I want to think that the knock filters may have been modified but this doesn't seem to be the case.
Trav, I look forward to your 4th gear logs. If your methods can be used in 4th and get the same results then you are correct and we are all leaving a lot of power on the table.
Only thing i can chime in, is the following conclusions:
1. There was a perfect environment for that run, low humidity, cool temps, which lead to low IAT's etc.
2. He had an exceptionally good batch of fuel in the car.
3. He may be using some colder plugs with a very small gap.
4. He manipulated the logs [ I say this just for the sake of speculation and in know way accusing you the OP]
5. He has a little midget with a fan in the Intake pipe cooling the temps down.
Personally through time and test, somedays you can have the pefect log on the car...high timing, nice AFR's and the next day shi t starts knocking.
Which is why you tune a little off the edge of knock..and give it room for a bad day, bad batch of gas etc.
Based on looking at his log, it looks possible, but im sure he will have 4-5 counts appear after 5k another time.
Some other questions we should ask are does he have cams? cam gears? waht are they set at?
1. There was a perfect environment for that run, low humidity, cool temps, which lead to low IAT's etc.
2. He had an exceptionally good batch of fuel in the car.
3. He may be using some colder plugs with a very small gap.
4. He manipulated the logs [ I say this just for the sake of speculation and in know way accusing you the OP]
5. He has a little midget with a fan in the Intake pipe cooling the temps down.
Personally through time and test, somedays you can have the pefect log on the car...high timing, nice AFR's and the next day shi t starts knocking.
Which is why you tune a little off the edge of knock..and give it room for a bad day, bad batch of gas etc.
Based on looking at his log, it looks possible, but im sure he will have 4-5 counts appear after 5k another time.
Some other questions we should ask are does he have cams? cam gears? waht are they set at?
Last edited by Ph3n1x; Jul 20, 2007 at 12:41 PM.
Only thing i can chime in, is the following conclusions:
1. There was a perfect environment for that run, low humidity, cool temps, which lead to low IAT's etc.
2. He had an exceptionally good batch of fuel in the car.
3. He may be using some colder plugs with a very small gap.
4. He manipulated the logs [ I say this just for the sake of speculation and in know way accusing you the OP]
5. He has a little midget with a fan in the Intake pipe cooling the temps down.
Personally through time and test, somedays you can have the pefect log on the car...high timing, nice AFR's and the next day shi t starts knocking.
Which is why you tune a little off the edge of knock..and give it room for a bad day, bad batch of gas etc.
Based on looking at his log, it looks possible, but im sure he will have 4-5 counts appear after 5k another time.
Some other questions we should ask are does he have cams? cam gears? waht are they set at?
1. There was a perfect environment for that run, low humidity, cool temps, which lead to low IAT's etc.
2. He had an exceptionally good batch of fuel in the car.
3. He may be using some colder plugs with a very small gap.
4. He manipulated the logs [ I say this just for the sake of speculation and in know way accusing you the OP]
5. He has a little midget with a fan in the Intake pipe cooling the temps down.
Personally through time and test, somedays you can have the pefect log on the car...high timing, nice AFR's and the next day shi t starts knocking.
Which is why you tune a little off the edge of knock..and give it room for a bad day, bad batch of gas etc.
Based on looking at his log, it looks possible, but im sure he will have 4-5 counts appear after 5k another time.
Some other questions we should ask are does he have cams? cam gears? waht are they set at?
i logged a friends car with a 20g and all supporting mods and with his car i could go at 11.8afrs in 3erd gear with 20* by redline and he didnt knock we came to the conclusion that he has bigger intercooler,ralliart thermostat and 1 step colder plugs gapped at .22inches so maybe this is why his car didnt knock at 22psi of boost but i played it safe i richen his afrs to 11.3 and lowered his timing and still the car makes a lot of power this is on 91oct he makes 372whp usiing DLL so yes its better to leave a margin of safety.
Only thing i can chime in, is the following conclusions:
1. There was a perfect environment for that run, low humidity, cool temps, which lead to low IAT's etc.
2. He had an exceptionally good batch of fuel in the car.
3. He may be using some colder plugs with a very small gap.
4. He manipulated the logs [ I say this just for the sake of speculation and in know way accusing you the OP]
5. He has a little midget with a fan in the Intake pipe cooling the temps down.
Personally through time and test, somedays you can have the pefect log on the car...high timing, nice AFR's and the next day shi t starts knocking.
Which is why you tune a little off the edge of knock..and give it room for a bad day, bad batch of gas etc.
Based on looking at his log, it looks possible, but im sure he will have 4-5 counts appear after 5k another time.
Some other questions we should ask are does he have cams? cam gears? waht are they set at?
1. There was a perfect environment for that run, low humidity, cool temps, which lead to low IAT's etc.
2. He had an exceptionally good batch of fuel in the car.
3. He may be using some colder plugs with a very small gap.
4. He manipulated the logs [ I say this just for the sake of speculation and in know way accusing you the OP]
5. He has a little midget with a fan in the Intake pipe cooling the temps down.
Personally through time and test, somedays you can have the pefect log on the car...high timing, nice AFR's and the next day shi t starts knocking.
Which is why you tune a little off the edge of knock..and give it room for a bad day, bad batch of gas etc.
Based on looking at his log, it looks possible, but im sure he will have 4-5 counts appear after 5k another time.
Some other questions we should ask are does he have cams? cam gears? waht are they set at?
2. Sunoco 93
3. stock plugs, stock gap, 21k miles on evo IX never pulled the plugs.
4. Did not manipulate any of the data, I am an honest person and have nothing to prove.
5. I always drive around for 5 min. between logs to allow the intercooler and charge system to get a nice cool down before doing another pull. If not all I would be doing is logging heat soak and where would that get me? But now that you mention that where could i get one of those installed, it sounds wonderful
No cams or cam gears...just intake & tbe
I am working on this tune more this weekend, i will post up what happens or what i find.
Last edited by travman; Jul 20, 2007 at 01:16 PM.
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I don't tune anyones car for a single glory run.. that's great for the dyno. I tune them so that they can be run hard with multiple back to back runs and stay relatively knock free. A better test would be to do some 1/4 mile runs or 3 back to back to back 3rd gear pulls and see if you're still knock free and fast.
Personally I run the absolute hell out of my car and sometimes for extended periods (autox and autocross) and it wouldn't last more than a minute at these temps/octane/timing your suggesting without throwing a knock party.
Personally I run the absolute hell out of my car and sometimes for extended periods (autox and autocross) and it wouldn't last more than a minute at these temps/octane/timing your suggesting without throwing a knock party.
The way I log is back-to-back-to-back. I do 4 logs the first two are less than 4 minutes apart. The IATs are @ 78-80* F. The way you are logging will get you knock free most of the time. Try back to back and see what happens.
1. It was a cooler evening (low 70's, low humidity)
2. Sunoco 93
3. stock plugs, stock gap, 21k miles on evo IX never pulled the plugs.
4. Did not manipulate any of the data, I am an honest person and have nothing to prove.
5. I always drive around for 5 min. between logs to allow the intercooler and charge system to get a nice cool down before doing another pull. If not all I would be doing is logging heat soak and where would that get me? But now that you mention that where could i get one of those installed, it sounds wonderful
No cams or cam gears...just intake & tbe
I am working on this tune more this weekend, i will post up what happens or what i find.
2. Sunoco 93
3. stock plugs, stock gap, 21k miles on evo IX never pulled the plugs.
4. Did not manipulate any of the data, I am an honest person and have nothing to prove.
5. I always drive around for 5 min. between logs to allow the intercooler and charge system to get a nice cool down before doing another pull. If not all I would be doing is logging heat soak and where would that get me? But now that you mention that where could i get one of those installed, it sounds wonderful
No cams or cam gears...just intake & tbe
I am working on this tune more this weekend, i will post up what happens or what i find.
BUT
I can bet that with that current setup and tune if you log from a full 1-4th gear pass youll possibly see knock on 3rd and 4th in the upper RPM ranges....Try it..
FYI i didn't mean to accuse you of lying....just putting possible conclusions.
Your right, back to back would induce the car to knock due to higher temps in coolant, IATs etc.
Last edited by Ph3n1x; Jul 20, 2007 at 08:11 PM.