openport 2.0
Noize, a lot of what you say is indeed true, but NJ is also in the right here as well. When ECUflash was released and people started pulling "tunes" they paid hundreds of dollars for and realized that many of these tuners didn't even know what they were doing. Lets go with the injector scaling issue which was hilariously pathetic for a few different tuners with fuel maps in the 17s and dropping as "correction" for larger injectors, no wonder they ran like crap. ECUflash showed that many of these guys either: A)didn't know how to properly scale injectors B. didn't have access to the correct maps using old software or C. all of the above (I'm going with C). ECUflash has done nothing but help the entire tuning community. It forced the tuners to actually come up with a quality tune, it taught many amateur and pro tuners alike the correct way to do many things, and finally, it has stimulated an entire offshoot of ROM mods and thinking outside of the box which in the end benefits us all. The Evo tuning world would not be NEARLY as interesting as it is without the advent of ECUflash.....however it is most definitely a gift, nowhere else in the tuning world is software of this caliber just given away like it is here, and now its starting to become expected rather than immensely appreciated, which is a shame.
I don't disagree with you on sevaral of your points. My point, is what do his attacks on "pro" tuners and what some of them were doing in the past have to do with 2008? Why does he say 70% of them are crap when he can't possibly have seen mapping from cars on the other side of the country and shops that are successfully using Ecuflash with great results? What do his attacks have to do with the Evo X and the 4B11?
My VIII was tuned by what he considers a "pro" tuner (Vishnu) with an XEDE and it didn't have unacceptable knock counts at all. When it got hot, you might see an occasional 2 or 3 count on pump gas, but almost never.
Bruce from Dyno4mance flashed my IX and it had no knock counts anytime I logged it, made great power, and was deadnuts reliable. When someone makes some silly unilateral statement which I know to be untrue, sure it gives me cause to rise.
I've got several Ecuflashed tuned cars running around, and I've mapped more XEDE cars than I can remember. They logged clean on the dyno and the street. I don't make my high and low octane maps the same value, and I don't see any (3) knock counts that will pull even one degree of timing in any of the cars I mapped. I'm not a "pro" tuner, but I have been mapping for 4 years, and learned almost everything I know from people who are pro tuners, from lots more platforms than Ecuflash, and on lots more cars than CT9A based Evos.
We're about to get knee deep in EcuTeK, and I am excited. Stock Xs are knocking, pulling timing, and enrichening. We can cure this and make a heap of power while doing it. Who knows when Ecuflash will be out? EcuTeK has full control of the fueling, ignition, boost, and Mivec maps. To me, that is great, because my car can be mapped finally and not run 8.8:1 on the crappy stock mapping. One thing you will see all the "pro" tuners say is to go to a EcuTeK dealer in your area if you want to get mapped. These people aren't going to be pedaling crappy tunes on the general public. They know what the public in 2008 expects and will be standing to deliver it. EcuTeK licensing is not cheap, but its not exactly expensive to the end user. People with VWs/Audis/BMWs plunk down a lot more for a shelf map than EcuTeK X users will for a professionally custom dyno tuned and logged car!
Maybe a couple of these most outspoken posters could pony up for an EcuTeK license or even a vendor sponsorship for this site and tune some cars instead of arguing with people over the internet?
I think we will definitely agree on one huge thing that tuning is NOT a black art. Its much more a fine art of using the proper amount of the ingredients to make a great end result.
Anyone can talk a good game. Anyone can bash pro tuners.
Anyone can be critical.
When you have 4 cars lined up, and need to diagnose, tune and get them out without blowing motors or having a customer leave dissatisfied, it's a different story.
Doodling around on your car all night on the interstate and tuning it for an entire week is not a luxury we have.
I am glad you were able to show expose the fact that there is a flip side to all of this chatter.
Sean
Anyone can be critical.
When you have 4 cars lined up, and need to diagnose, tune and get them out without blowing motors or having a customer leave dissatisfied, it's a different story.
Doodling around on your car all night on the interstate and tuning it for an entire week is not a luxury we have.
I am glad you were able to show expose the fact that there is a flip side to all of this chatter.
Sean
That is incorrect. ECUflash users/disassemblers did a huge job at adding valauble knowledge to the tuning community. You have not been around long enough to read the thousands of posts in the ECUflash forums. Our knowledge of ECU boost control and other ECU related activity has improved tremendously thanks to the FREE work of people like:
mrfred
malibujack
razorlab
tephra
bez_beshani
and many many others whose names I forgot to mention.
mrfred
malibujack
razorlab
tephra
bez_beshani
and many many others whose names I forgot to mention.
And some of the "pro" tuners as well, who have been using ECU based boost since Techtom days with great results.
You really have a problem reading, don't you. I said that I have seen maps from three tuners (two ECUflash maps) and I have used one of the maps for my Xede. The xede map were supposed to be conservative and was downloadable from the Vishnu website for the Xede. My car knocked on that map and it knocked on the custom tuned map that was created by the pro-tuner in SoCal. I was not the only one. Many XEDE users who used these "safe" maps had high knock counts in the logs.
This XEDE blathering is so off topic, its ridiculous. It hasn't been used or even sold in several years. The PROcede is a different product that shares nothing other than a plastic case. No correlation between the units applies. I can say that because I have tuned quite a bit with both.
Noize, you may have something personal against nj1266, but he has a point. He (without calling any names) specifically states that "When Evoscan came on the market, we discovered that the $600 tunes that a lot of people (including myself) paid for were horrible" and list some of the inconsistencies or irregularities with the some tunes.
Regarding those old tunes, please see the start of my reply for my take on the situation.
If nj feels he can do better than 70% of everyone else, why not start tuning the X now?
I don't disagree with you on sevaral of your points. My point, is what do his attacks on "pro" tuners and what some of them were doing in the past have to do with 2008? Why does he say 70% of them are crap when he can't possibly have seen mapping from cars on the other side of the country and shops that are successfully using Ecuflash with great results? What do his attacks have to do with the Evo X and the 4B11?
NJ1266 has never purchased any mapping from us according to our records, nor have we mapped his car, ever.
Hope this clears up any confusion with Pro Tuners names being thrown around.
Hope this clears up any confusion with Pro Tuners names being thrown around.
I would like to make a brief point and then ask to get back on topic rather than attacking protuners vs non protuners.
The vast majority of tuners I have met/spoken with (of which there have been many) believes that their tunes are perfect and everyone else is wrong/crap. Many tune differently and believe in different methods. Now they cant all be right, and to some degree, they are not all wrong either. My point is the any one tuner including the one stirring up the pot here is not the authority on what tunes are good and bad. You have your opinion which you state as fact. But the reality is, you could be terrible relative to someone else, or you could be very good.
So it is a ridiculous blanket statement from a biased source to say that all or even most protuners are junk and one that you need to stop making. Even if what you said is true and 3 maps you have seen were bad (again, on your opinion, with the exception of knock), that is not sufficient to make those comments. Please respect that you nor anyone else here is the god of tuning. Every tuner is different, and we have some very skilled and experienced ones on this site.
The vast majority of tuners I have met/spoken with (of which there have been many) believes that their tunes are perfect and everyone else is wrong/crap. Many tune differently and believe in different methods. Now they cant all be right, and to some degree, they are not all wrong either. My point is the any one tuner including the one stirring up the pot here is not the authority on what tunes are good and bad. You have your opinion which you state as fact. But the reality is, you could be terrible relative to someone else, or you could be very good.
So it is a ridiculous blanket statement from a biased source to say that all or even most protuners are junk and one that you need to stop making. Even if what you said is true and 3 maps you have seen were bad (again, on your opinion, with the exception of knock), that is not sufficient to make those comments. Please respect that you nor anyone else here is the god of tuning. Every tuner is different, and we have some very skilled and experienced ones on this site.
I would like to make a brief point and then ask to get back on topic rather than attacking protuners vs non protuners.
The vast majority of tuners I have met/spoken with (of which there have been many) believes that their tunes are perfect and everyone else is wrong/crap. Many tune differently and believe in different methods. Now they cant all be right, and to some degree, they are not all wrong either. My point is the any one tuner including the one stirring up the pot here is not the authority on what tunes are good and bad. You have your opinion which you state as fact. But the reality is, you could be terrible relative to someone else, or you could be very good.
So it is a ridiculous blanket statement from a biased source to say that all or even most protuners are junk and one that you need to stop making. Even if what you said is true and 3 maps you have seen were bad (again, on your opinion, with the exception of knock), that is not sufficient to make those comments. Please respect that you nor anyone else here is the god of tuning. Every tuner is different, and we have some very skilled and experienced ones on this site.
The vast majority of tuners I have met/spoken with (of which there have been many) believes that their tunes are perfect and everyone else is wrong/crap. Many tune differently and believe in different methods. Now they cant all be right, and to some degree, they are not all wrong either. My point is the any one tuner including the one stirring up the pot here is not the authority on what tunes are good and bad. You have your opinion which you state as fact. But the reality is, you could be terrible relative to someone else, or you could be very good.
So it is a ridiculous blanket statement from a biased source to say that all or even most protuners are junk and one that you need to stop making. Even if what you said is true and 3 maps you have seen were bad (again, on your opinion, with the exception of knock), that is not sufficient to make those comments. Please respect that you nor anyone else here is the god of tuning. Every tuner is different, and we have some very skilled and experienced ones on this site.
I would like to add the following :
Before so called "open source" ecu flash became available many of the pro tuners including myself who were originally offering reflashes for these cars used tech tom hex code editors with little or no support of guidance from the supplier.
While the map arrangement may not look as orderly with some of those ecus when using ecu flash the cars still ran really well and the results were very impressive.
With the advent of ecu flash all the pro tuners have also improved and cleaned up the look of may of the roms.
Often I run across some of my old maps wade with Tech Tom and those tunes still kick *** and run great today some 4 and 5 years later. Most importantly the record of reliability was amazing with many cars exceeding 100,000 miles and running great over time. All of thise was accomplished by carefully testing and doing R & D on what I was doing when I started.
Its easy for "arm chair" experts to look at maps and say this is wrong or that is wrong with the benefit of a superior mapping program with more tuneable parameters.
Back in the day most of the maps I was changing were found through trial and error kind of like finding a needle in a hay stack.
A lot of the "open source" fans are really interested in using misappropriated tuner's work and stealing tuner's ideas. Many of them have no desire to try and tune their cars but rather they seek to take the work and ideas of tuners and share it with thier pals.
This is another reason why Ecutek appeals more to tuners as there is protectiuon for the work product.
As far as some of the guys here who are saying the the Ecutek model will not work - I would like to point out that I have been selling Ecutek on Subarus for 4 years now and that 95% of my stock ecu Subaru customers choose Ecutek becuase
1 - It has better tuning parameters
2 - It has more features and things like live map tracing etc and better data logging which make tuning easier and more accurate
3 - They offer 24/7 tech support and aide to tuners by so0me of the best minds in the buisiness
Even though so called "open source" free tuninh has been out for several years opn the Subaru side we still use Ecutek as it is a better tool.
Due to the complexity of the Evo X ecu it will be a long time for anyone to develop a product to rival the Flash Can "X" of Ecutek so I forsee myself staying with Ecutek for the forseeable future
Personally, I think it is going to be a longer wait than June 1. That is my feeling. I do not have any hard facts to back it up, but it takes longer for a small operation such as colby's to come up with a flashing software.
EvoM Guru
iTrader: (50)
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From: Tri-Cities, WA // Portland, OR
Its not the flashing software that will be the hold-up. ECUFlash already exists. Its going to be the time it takes to figure out how to get the ROM out of the ECU and then find all the key maps in the ROM. I think the method for getting the ROM out of the ECU has already been figured out. Once openport 2.0 hits the streets, I suspect that there will be a large community effort to go along with whatever Colby is doing to disassemble the Evo X ROM. Key tables such as fuel, timing, and MIVEC will probably be available relatively quickly.
Last edited by mrfred; Apr 24, 2008 at 11:16 AM.
Its not the flashing software that will be the hold-up. ECUFlash already exists. Its going to be the time it takes to figure out how to get the ROM out of the ECU and then find all the key maps in the ROM. I think the method for getting the ROM out of the ECU has already been figured out. Once openport 2.0 hits the streets, I suspect that there will be a large community effort to go along with whatever Colby is doing to disassemble the Evo X ROM. Key tables such as fuel, timing, and MIVEC will probably be available relatively quickly.
l8r)
Last edited by Ludikraut; Apr 24, 2008 at 01:26 PM.
AL, I don't know when this huge love you have for ECUtek came about? You sure did'nt seem to enjoy using it when you tuned my car at Pruven. You could'nt get my ECU controlled boost set up using ECutek so I bought a MBC from you...on the spot. I'm not trying to bash...Just pointing out a personal experience I had with Al and Ecutek. You were one of the reasons I switched to using Open source software, Thanks.
EvoM Guru
iTrader: (50)
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,675
Likes: 132
From: Tri-Cities, WA // Portland, OR
Yeah, should go more quickly. It will help if more hackers come out the woodwork. I doubt I'll have any time to contribute to the Evo X disassembly, at least until I get an Evo X in a few years. :-)) By then, all the cool stuff will probably be done though.
I agree with the general consensus here. Pandora's box has been opened, and a very large number of the people in this community have been burned by a professional tune in one way or another. Fortunately, this doesn't usually result in a blown motor, but instead shows up as poor drive ability, and nagging CEL's that the tuner didnt have time to make the proper adjustments for.
The reality is its incredibly difficult to provide a stable, solid, and reliable tune in just 1 hour. Every car is a little different, and those differences get compounded based on the driving habits of the owner. If you truly want a solid "Pro" tune, then you need to be prepared to give up your car for a few weeks, and really work with that "Pro" so that they can adjust all of the areas to match your driving habits, and expectations. This is what is so nice about the user tools that exist for the previous cars. It put the "fine" tune powers in the owners hands, and allowed them to adjust out the "pro" tune that didnt fully meet their expectations in one way or another. I wish the software companies would recognize this, and continue to allow the "pro" tuners create their 1 hour maps, but also give power to the user that paid for the service to make all the "fine" tune adjustments that will meet their criteria and expectations.
I have a great amount of respect for several members of the "pro" tuning community. And I still believe that many of them will continue to provide great base maps that will allow most of us to achieve our goals quickly and efficiently. That, in my opinion, is the future of the "pro" tuner. Someone that is a true "Partner" in the creation of your perfect tune.
The reality is its incredibly difficult to provide a stable, solid, and reliable tune in just 1 hour. Every car is a little different, and those differences get compounded based on the driving habits of the owner. If you truly want a solid "Pro" tune, then you need to be prepared to give up your car for a few weeks, and really work with that "Pro" so that they can adjust all of the areas to match your driving habits, and expectations. This is what is so nice about the user tools that exist for the previous cars. It put the "fine" tune powers in the owners hands, and allowed them to adjust out the "pro" tune that didnt fully meet their expectations in one way or another. I wish the software companies would recognize this, and continue to allow the "pro" tuners create their 1 hour maps, but also give power to the user that paid for the service to make all the "fine" tune adjustments that will meet their criteria and expectations.
I have a great amount of respect for several members of the "pro" tuning community. And I still believe that many of them will continue to provide great base maps that will allow most of us to achieve our goals quickly and efficiently. That, in my opinion, is the future of the "pro" tuner. Someone that is a true "Partner" in the creation of your perfect tune.
The 4B is a brand new beast. No one knows the limits, unlike the VERY well documented 4G. ECUFlash came out at the end of the 4G's reign, when everyone and their mom already knew about its timing limits, power limits, ect.
The 4B on the other hand, no one is for sure. If ECUFlash comes into the market in the next 6 months, there are going to be blown X's everywhere. Especially if you let someone lose control of your fuel...
You know why so many people looked at your page nj1266? Because you were the only one bored enough to google, and search through the forums and basically copy and paste every bit of info you found and put it in one place.
You did the dirty work and people are thankful.
Pull a Vishnu, TTP or Ivey tune. According to your 70 percent theory, one if not all of these 3 gentlemen have crappy skills.... yeah right. A wannabe tuner like yourself will never be considered in the same breath as any of these guys. Especially when
"Second, you need injectors when you have a TBE w/tp and an open element filter and you are using the ECU to control boost. ECU boost control holds at least 2 more psi up top than an MBC. That requires more fuel and the stock injectors get maxed out and you lose control over the AFR. I have had that happen to a lot of Evos that I have tuned."
ROFL. Still cracks me up everytime I read this. So according to you. Lets say you tuned a car with a MBC. Seems like the only thing stopping a car tuned by you from losing control of the AFR is a measly 2psi.
If its cold outside, and your car has been tuned by "I Lose control" nj1266, I recommend staying off boost. In what perfect world do you live in where the boost is exactly the same in all conditions. Once again ask ANY professonal tuner if they have ever ran into this problem. No you, JB, and the rest of you power puffs arn't professonals like Shiv, Sean, Buschur, or TTP.
I'd gladly pay extra for a bulletproof tune from a PROFESSIONAL tuner on a brand new engine.
The 4B on the other hand, no one is for sure. If ECUFlash comes into the market in the next 6 months, there are going to be blown X's everywhere. Especially if you let someone lose control of your fuel...
You know why so many people looked at your page nj1266? Because you were the only one bored enough to google, and search through the forums and basically copy and paste every bit of info you found and put it in one place.
You did the dirty work and people are thankful.
Pull a Vishnu, TTP or Ivey tune. According to your 70 percent theory, one if not all of these 3 gentlemen have crappy skills.... yeah right. A wannabe tuner like yourself will never be considered in the same breath as any of these guys. Especially when
"Second, you need injectors when you have a TBE w/tp and an open element filter and you are using the ECU to control boost. ECU boost control holds at least 2 more psi up top than an MBC. That requires more fuel and the stock injectors get maxed out and you lose control over the AFR. I have had that happen to a lot of Evos that I have tuned."
ROFL. Still cracks me up everytime I read this. So according to you. Lets say you tuned a car with a MBC. Seems like the only thing stopping a car tuned by you from losing control of the AFR is a measly 2psi.
If its cold outside, and your car has been tuned by "I Lose control" nj1266, I recommend staying off boost. In what perfect world do you live in where the boost is exactly the same in all conditions. Once again ask ANY professonal tuner if they have ever ran into this problem. No you, JB, and the rest of you power puffs arn't professonals like Shiv, Sean, Buschur, or TTP.
I'd gladly pay extra for a bulletproof tune from a PROFESSIONAL tuner on a brand new engine.
That is incorrect. ECUflash users/disassemblers did a huge job at adding valauble knowledge to the tuning community. You have not been around long enough to read the thousands of posts in the ECUflash forums. Our knowledge of ECU boost control and other ECU related activity has improved tremendously thanks to the FREE work of people like:
mrfred
malibujack
razorlab
tephra
bez_beshani
and many many others whose names I forgot to mention.
STOP misrepresneting what I said. You know that you are doing it, so please stop. I told you multiple times that with ECU boost control a TBE and TP and an open intake the stock injectors WILL NOT provide enough fuel. So you will either have to reduce the boost or swap the injectors. I tell my friends to get bigger injectors and those who do not/cannot get bigger injectors, I lower the boost on their cars.
That is another piece of disinformation/misinformation on your part. ALL the data/maps posted have been logged by me and only me. I put everything together using my data. The data is mine and the knowledge I acquired how to tune is due to the GREAT help from the above mentioned people.
The overwhelming majority of the cars that I tune use ECUboost control. You really need to educate yourself about how ECU boost control works. A properly set-up ECU boost control will hit almost the same boost in every log. I have logs that hit the same boost in 3rd gear and 4th gear over and over and over again.
2 psi up top is huge and maxes out the stock injectors. My car holds 20-21 psi by redline and that is AVERAGE peak boost. Peak boost is even higher. Get any car to hold that much boost by redline with TBE/TP and intake and the injectors will max out. I told you before to post logs proving otherwise and you could not do it.
If you want to talk the talk, please walk the walk. POST logs with boost at 20-21 psi by redline along with IDC numbers and show me that your IDC is NOT 95% or higher. Please support what you say with FACTS. You have a lot of opinions, but no facts.
mrfred
malibujack
razorlab
tephra
bez_beshani
and many many others whose names I forgot to mention.
STOP misrepresneting what I said. You know that you are doing it, so please stop. I told you multiple times that with ECU boost control a TBE and TP and an open intake the stock injectors WILL NOT provide enough fuel. So you will either have to reduce the boost or swap the injectors. I tell my friends to get bigger injectors and those who do not/cannot get bigger injectors, I lower the boost on their cars.
That is another piece of disinformation/misinformation on your part. ALL the data/maps posted have been logged by me and only me. I put everything together using my data. The data is mine and the knowledge I acquired how to tune is due to the GREAT help from the above mentioned people.
The overwhelming majority of the cars that I tune use ECUboost control. You really need to educate yourself about how ECU boost control works. A properly set-up ECU boost control will hit almost the same boost in every log. I have logs that hit the same boost in 3rd gear and 4th gear over and over and over again.
2 psi up top is huge and maxes out the stock injectors. My car holds 20-21 psi by redline and that is AVERAGE peak boost. Peak boost is even higher. Get any car to hold that much boost by redline with TBE/TP and intake and the injectors will max out. I told you before to post logs proving otherwise and you could not do it.
If you want to talk the talk, please walk the walk. POST logs with boost at 20-21 psi by redline along with IDC numbers and show me that your IDC is NOT 95% or higher. Please support what you say with FACTS. You have a lot of opinions, but no facts.
First, you need to heed a couple things. the first, a newbie topic..... BOOST is NOT everything.
The next thing is gonna be a big thing, as I was on the forefront of ECU boost control. I think a lot of people may disagree with my opinion but here it goes... ECU boost control is not all its cracked up to be. It is a very time consuming process, that can NOT, and I mean can NOT, be tuned perfectly in one, two or even three tuning sessions. You might get lucky cuz you live in so cal, where the temp only vary about 20-30*s. Come up to where i live in nor-cal, where temps and elevation change greatly and see what happens.
Also, Im under the impression that you dont drag race, so I'd guess you know nothing about this. But you should take one of the cars you "tuned" the ECU boost control to the drag strip and run it. Have fun watching that ECU controlled boost spike and dip all over the place.
And yes there is tips to get ECU boost controlled drag runs to have perfect consistent boost, but it takes a long time to get it perfect. Then the weather changes and you have to start all over.
In conclusion (on the boost tip), I know pro ECU controlled boost users are not gonna like what i just said and say Im wrong. I'm not. ECU controlled boost take a long time to get perfect and takes constant tweaking with weather, season changes and driving styles. In the end, it IS easier and just as functional to just throw a MBC on and call it a day
Also, big up to razrlab, as I see him as one of the originators of ECU boost control (along with mrfred & others. Thanks for all your work). NJ, on the other hand, just sat and watched us, then ran with all the info like he did the R&D or something.
Again, wheres my royalty check??
Now to address the real problem at hand. NJ......LISTEN. Your NOT SHIV, YOUR not AL, YOUR NOT scott (TTP). You can say what ever you want about these guys NJ, it still dont make you a tuner. Yeah , I know you can say "well i can bring up this Al map and its block tuned all over, etc." We'll let me see how good you do tuning on tech tom without EVOscan to help you though. These guys are REAL tuner, the ones that dont need EVOscan and can do tune by using their ears and feeling the power delivery. Yeah, you can probably find a map from each of them that might have some "dated" techniques that are incorrect ways to tune, but they also have many cars doing fast time and wining big events.
There is another part to this, yes EVOscan made it so we could check our "pro" tuned map and point out their flaws, but if the pro tuners didnt do the R&D and test things, even incorrect tuning ideas, for us to learn from, where would we be??
(FYI, for peeps that dont know...
NJ did NOT invent, research or help develop ECU boost control.
I'm not a vishnu, dynoflah or TTP fanboy at all.)