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2.4LR Evo 9 93oct Virtual Dyno Results

 
Old Jun 2, 2018, 08:20 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by 2006EvoIXer View Post
I just got back from machine shop. And the only time rings wedge against cylinder is when piston skirt pivots. With long rods, the skirts are shortened and run a much greater risk of pivoting. In other words, with shorter skirts, it doesn't have the advantage of longer arm to resist pivoting.

2winscroll, you're correct about piston acceleration/deceleration speeds varies as rods turn around the crank. My thinking was simplified and was average speed thinking. With long rods, the acceleration/deceleration from TDC to mid cylinder is less drastic than shorter rods. I'll need to find a way to calculate the advantages and disadvantages to see if tradeoff is worth the risk and cost differences.
I'll need to recalculate 26 m/s piston speed vs RPM. This will reduce rev limit for each crankshaft. Lol
your overthinking this. Iíve never heard this pivot theory. I would be more concerned about running high boost without piston porting. Once you start running over 35 psi you start to get a lot of ring leakage and that can dilute your oil quickly.
have fun doing the math
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Old Nov 19, 2018, 12:36 AM
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Soo how are you guys doing? Finally the summer is gone and we have a boost season As I was patiently waiting, I switched my oem wheels with Advan RS 17x8.5'' and fitted Michelin Pilot Sport 4 (245/40/17). I also waited for all the parts to arrive so I can have them installed.

As we speak, the car is in my builder/tuner and the fab in order to do some parts. Firstly, we probably will relocate the battery in the trunk, new cold and hot intercooler pipes, intake pipe, 2 dump pipes and new 3.5'' downpipe with exhaust cutout to help keep backpressure in check.

As previously said, the car will be tuned on 93-94 pump gas blend and see how it will responds to that. 99% the limiting factor will be my fuel system as at the moment I have 1050x injectors, new 450 wally and stock fuel lines. I also have an adjustable FPR but I am not sure if it will help us with the fuel flow. Probably later on I will install larger lines from tank to fuel rail. I will post some VD results as soon as I get the car tuned. Hopefully within 2 weeks from now.



6466 - T4 Divided - 1.15a/r

6466 - T4 Divided - 1.15a/r

T4 Divided Custom Exhaust Manifold

T4 Divided Custom Exhaust Manifold

T4 Divided Custom Exhaust Manifold

T4 Divided Custom Exhaust Manifold

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English Racing Exhaust Cutout

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Old Nov 19, 2018, 02:53 AM
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It will be a fun setup,all the best with the built.








Marios
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Old Nov 19, 2018, 09:42 AM
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Thank you Marios!
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Old Nov 19, 2018, 09:47 AM
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On a side note that forgot to mention, I will also switch oil brand. After the build, I was recommended to use Red Line Oil 5w40 which I was also using before the build. However, the engine seems to hate this oil for some reason. Without any leaks, the engine oil was down of at least 1-1.5 quart. A lot of oil for 3.000miles which 1.500 of them were for break in. I will put Millers Oil nanodrive 10w60 and see how it goes also. Probably the oil was too thin for a built engine and had severe blowby but I did not notice any smoking from the exhaust.
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Old Nov 20, 2018, 04:08 AM
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Originally Posted by 2winscroll View Post


your overthinking this. I’ve never heard this pivot theory. I would be more concerned about running high boost without piston porting. Once you start running over 35 psi you start to get a lot of ring leakage and that can dilute your oil quickly.
have fun doing the math

Also causes excessive blow by, was your catch can filling at all?

Last edited by 2winscroll; Nov 20, 2018 at 04:35 AM.
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Old Nov 20, 2018, 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by ConEvo View Post
On a side note that forgot to mention, I will also switch oil brand. After the build, I was recommended to use Red Line Oil 5w40 which I was also using before the build. However, the engine seems to hate this oil for some reason. Without any leaks, the engine oil was down of at least 1-1.5 quart. A lot of oil for 3.000miles which 1.500 of them were for break in. I will put Millers Oil nanodrive 10w60 and see how it goes also. Probably the oil was too thin for a built engine and had severe blowby but I did not notice any smoking from the exhaust.

Did you use a torque plate when the motor was rebuilt the first time?
Also I never run a synthetic for break-in, I use a conventional oil to help seat the rings and I only run it for a short period of time then it gets changed. Way before 3000 miles.

FYI thin oil doesn’t cause blowby, cylinder walls love thin oil, engine bearings don’t.
Blowby is usually caused by cylinders out of round or grooving, excessive or improper ring end gaps, worn ring lands, detonation. A small amount of acceptable leakage generally associated with an N/A motor will be compounded with boost. It’s critical to use a torque plate when building a motor, especially one designed for high boost. Once you start getting over 600hp, cylinder pressures get so high, piston porting becomes necessary to maintain ring seal.

Last edited by 2winscroll; Nov 20, 2018 at 04:56 AM.
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Old Nov 20, 2018, 05:19 AM
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What was your oil pressure at idle warmed up? The nanodrive 10w60 is much much heavier than the 5w40 redline, it could possibly be to heavy an oil if the bearing clearance in your engine is set for thinner oil. If you had a professional shop build your motor, I would call them. The 10w60 will NOT be a good choice in cooler weather.
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Old Nov 20, 2018, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by 2winscroll View Post
What was your oil pressure at idle warmed up? The nanodrive 10w60 is much much heavier than the 5w40 redline, it could possibly be to heavy an oil if the bearing clearance in your engine is set for thinner oil. If you had a professional shop build your motor, I would call them. The 10w60 will NOT be a good choice in cooler weather.
Yes, a torque plate was used. I know that it is a much heavier oil than 5w40, but probably it is more appropriate for my build. Usually stock engines are using this thin oil, i should know better that a built engine requires a thicker oil. I do not have any issues for cold weather, I stay in one of the warmest countries in the world. I do not remember snowing and the winter lasts for about 2 months

Last edited by ConEvo; Nov 21, 2018 at 12:30 AM.
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Old Nov 20, 2018, 10:30 AM
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Heavier oil only benefits a motor that has increased clearances for running the thicker oil. Running thicker oil in a motor with tight clearances can actually be detrimental. Many thin oils have a higher film strength than thicker oils. Built Motors use thin oils in many instances, if you don’t know the engine clearances your playing with fire. If your engine builder clearanced the motor for 5w40 you probably shouldn’t be running an oil that’s thicker than 20w50. I looked at the spec sheet on that oil, it’s viscosity is twice that of redline 5w40.
“Probably” is not a term I would want to rely on when it comes to lubrication of a 5 horsepower per cubic inch engine.

Your theory that a thicker oil will reduce usage is wrong. Thicker oils actually are harder for the rings to control and will have no affect improving blowby. If it is blowing into your catch can expect it to get worse with thicker oil because drainback from the head/valve cover will be worse.



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Old Nov 21, 2018, 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by 2winscroll View Post
Heavier oil only benefits a motor that has increased clearances for running the thicker oil. Running thicker oil in a motor with tight clearances can actually be detrimental. Many thin oils have a higher film strength than thicker oils. Built Motors use thin oils in many instances, if you donít know the engine clearances your playing with fire. If your engine builder clearanced the motor for 5w40 you probably shouldnít be running an oil thatís thicker than 20w50. I looked at the spec sheet on that oil, itís viscosity is twice that of redline 5w40.
ďProbablyĒ is not a term I would want to rely on when it comes to lubrication of a 5 horsepower per cubic inch engine.

Your theory that a thicker oil will reduce usage is wrong. Thicker oils actually are harder for the rings to control and will have no affect improving blowby. If it is blowing into your catch can expect it to get worse with thicker oil because drainback from the head/valve cover will be worse.



The reason that I said possibly is because I am no expert on clearances. I will install now a catch can, I have a -10an fitting on exhaust cam but I will delete also the pcv valve for a second -10an fitting. There is not any blowing at the moment, what I notice is that the oil indicator always rises. The crankcase pressure probably is what causes this issue and that is what i am trying to resolve. I do not have oil squirters, as the block came with some small different squirters from 4g63. I do not have any oil pressure sensor to monitor the pressure, but hopefully soon I will install one to have a better view on what is going on. Also, i will install a kiggly HLA which i know that it helps keeping more oil in the pan, but i am not sure that if this will help. One step at a time
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Old Nov 21, 2018, 05:04 AM
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Just a few points to stress out.


Firstly a healthy engine has no actual usage of a catch can. If one is added, there should be no actual oil concentration in it, apart from a very negligible quantity over a long period of engine usage. A catch can is added mostly for engine bay cleanliness and for any blow by fumes to be gathered in it and not released into the atmosphere as such, but through a filter.


For a high powered setup, all you need to do to keep it at its best performance and not have any issues from added blow by due to higher cylinder pressures, is to make sure it has all the right breathing holes at the right places.


If an engine has high concentration of oil in a catch can in a short amount of time, then two things are wrong, you are either using the wrong oil for your engine's clearances and type of usage or the engine has been built poorly.


There is no need to stress anything about a poorly built engine, but I will type a couple of things on oil. Firstly it is a misconception that a thicker oil is better than a thinner one and vice versa, it is all about using the right oil for the right setup and purpose of that. Secondly choosing the right oil goes far beyond its advertised viscosity, two different brand oil types of the same viscosity might easily have a totally different effect on a certain engine. It comes, down, to viscosity, additives, molecular structure's form and its properties,( breakdown point, heat tolerance and dispense-functioning rate of this, effective lubrication deterioration, time of returning to original state-degree vs time vs temperature of that, etc.) In other words one might use an advertised thinner oil than an advertised thicker one, and have better results even if its engine clearances are dictating something of higher viscosity. A viscosity level of an oil is just one parameter, many other characteristics fall into place and need to be taken into consideration when using an oil.



Two rules of thumb that have certain pragmatical value is that the larger the clearances the higher viscosity an oil one will need to use. This applies if all other characteristics of its molecular structure are also as it should be, if the rest of specs of a higher viscosity oil are not the right ones for a particular setup, one might find out soon enough that using a lower viscosity oil of different molecular characteristics might have a more beneficial effect. The second is that, indeed lower viscosity oil is better controlled by the oil ring. The important factor here is, how much lower viscosity and in relation to what, as there are other factors that one should consider apart from clearances and blow by, aspects such as cylinder pressures, how high for how long, type of usage of the setup, a certain compromise might fall into place.


The only way one can find the right oil for his engine is to try different brands of specific type of oil and closely monitor its effect on his setup.




To the O.P, my friend try different types of oil, and see what has the best overall effect on your setup.








Marios

Last edited by Evo8cy; Nov 21, 2018 at 05:25 AM. Reason: typos
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Old Nov 21, 2018, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Evo8cy View Post
Just a few points to stress out.


Firstly a healthy engine has no actual usage of a catch can. If one is added, there should be no actual oil concentration in it, apart from a very negligible quantity over a long period of engine usage. A catch can is added mostly for engine bay cleanliness and for any blow by fumes to be gathered in it and not released into the atmosphere as such, but through a filter.


For a high powered setup, all you need to do to keep it at its best performance and not have any issues from added blow by due to higher cylinder pressures, is to make sure it has all the right breathing holes at the right places.


If an engine has high concentration of oil in a catch can in a short amount of time, then two things are wrong, you are either using the wrong oil for your engine's clearances and type of usage or the engine has been built poorly.


There is no need to stress anything about a poorly built engine, but I will type a couple of things on oil. Firstly it is a misconception that a thicker oil is better than a thinner one and vice versa, it is all about using the right oil for the right setup and purpose of that. Secondly choosing the right oil goes far beyond its advertised viscosity, two different brand oil types of the same viscosity might easily have a totally different effect on a certain engine. It comes, down, to viscosity, additives, molecular structure's form and its properties,( breakdown point, heat tolerance and dispense-functioning rate of this, effective lubrication deterioration, time of returning to original state-degree vs time vs temperature of that, etc.) In other words one might use an advertised thinner oil than an advertised thicker one, and have better results even if its engine clearances are dictating something of higher viscosity. A viscosity level of an oil is just one parameter, many other characteristics fall into place and need to be taken into consideration when using an oil.



Two rules of thumb that have certain pragmatical value is that the larger the clearances the higher viscosity an oil one will need to use. This applies if all other characteristics of its molecular structure are also as it should be, if the rest of specs of a higher viscosity oil are not the right ones for a particular setup, one might find out soon enough that using a lower viscosity oil of different molecular characteristics might have a more beneficial effect. The second is that, indeed lower viscosity oil is better controlled by the oil ring. The important factor here is, how much lower viscosity and in relation to what, as there are other factors that one should consider apart from clearances and blow by, aspects such as cylinder pressures, how high for how long, type of usage of the setup, a certain compromise might fall into place.


The only way one can find the right oil for his engine is to try different brands of specific type of oil and closely monitor its effect on his setup.




To the O.P, my friend try different types of oil, and see what has the best overall effect on your setup.








Marios

Wow that was an impressive rant!
First let me explain why Iím choosing to give my views on this topic.
It seems many are confused about what type of oil to run, itís an important subject as I have seen bad results from using the wrong oil. Iím doing my best to help educate folks so they donít make bad decisions.
If you donít want my advice thats fine.

Iím not in agreement with your views about viscosity, itís the limiting factor that dictates if a particular oil can be used in any particular engine and the most important information about the oil you intend to use or try. Why do you think they identify oils by their viscosity?

Additive packages help with a host of other issues such as sludge, fuel dilution, particle suspension, film strength, metal to metal contact if your oil film gets to thin (ZDDP levels), etc.

Blowby is caused from a host of different factors including but not limited too;
engine rpm
ring tension
ring flutter
high cylinder pressures
cylinder wall finish
ring side clearance
ring orientation
improperly gaped rings
cylinder wall concentricity

know this, you can have a well built motor, torque plated with high quality pistons, and still have excess blowby due to high rpm or high boost.

oil in the catch can is NOT always a determination of engine health. Itís been proven with a 4g63 that without a HLA regulator most running thicker oils will have drain back problems causing oil in the catch can.

you still have not answered my question, ďwhat is your oil pressure at idle when warm?Ē
the reason I ask is you can get a good idea from this pressure reading if your running the proper viscosity oil in your engine.
Iím leaning towards you probably donít even have an oil pressure gauge, now where I come from thatís just Cray Cray.

never mind all this defending your positions to save face, look at your clearances, if you donít have that info your next best guess is your oil pressure gauge. Use it as a barometer for your bearing health.

Cheers, 2win


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Old Nov 21, 2018, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by 2winscroll View Post



Wow that was an impressive rant!
First let me explain why I’m choosing to give my views on this topic.
It seems many are confused about what type of oil to run, it’s an important subject as I have seen bad results from using the wrong oil. I’m doing my best to help educate folks so they don’t make bad decisions.
If you don’t want my advice thats fine.

I’m not in agreement with your views about viscosity, it’s the limiting factor that dictates if a particular oil can be used in any particular engine and the most important information about the oil you intend to use or try. Why do you think they identify oils by their viscosity?

Additive packages help with a host of other issues such as sludge, fuel dilution, particle suspension, film strength, metal to metal contact if your oil film gets to thin (ZDDP levels), etc.

Blowby is caused from a host of different factors including but not limited too;
engine rpm
ring tension
ring flutter
high cylinder pressures
cylinder wall finish
ring side clearance
ring orientation
improperly gaped rings
cylinder wall concentricity

know this, you can have a well built motor, torque plated with high quality pistons, and still have excess blowby due to high rpm or high boost.

oil in the catch can is NOT always a determination of engine health. It’s been proven with a 4g63 that without a HLA regulator most running thicker oils will have drain back problems causing oil in the catch can.

you still have not answered my question, “what is your oil pressure at idle when warm?”
the reason I ask is you can get a good idea from this pressure reading if your running the proper viscosity oil in your engine.
I’m leaning towards you probably don’t even have an oil pressure gauge, now where I come from that’s just Cray Cray.

never mind all this defending your positions to save face, look at your clearances, if you don’t have that info your next best guess is your oil pressure gauge. Use it as a barometer for your bearing health.

Cheers, 2win






















That was no rant, calling it as such shows your certain lack of knowledge on oil molecular chemistry, do not get confused on things, as you are entitled to your opinion so is anyone else. I'm not interested as to why you wish to post your opinion as it is a matter totally unrelated to me.


-I did not ask you to agree with me, nor do I care about the matter.

I purely disagreed , viscosity is not the decisive factor, as I said other characteristics fall into place, oils are identified in terms of viscosity for ease of categorization, marketing purposes, and also because viscosity is one of most important characteristics of an oil. As I said you might have two different brands of oils with the same advertised viscosity that will have different effects on the same engine, because the rest of the molecular characteristics differ. Viscosity is the ability to withstand and oppose flow, how that happens and what effect it has on an engine can differ greatly and is totally down to the specific synthesis of an oil.



-I never referred to blow by in terms of what it causes it, I am very aware of what it causes it. The only thing I typed about the relation of oil and blow by in regards to the O.P's wish to use a thicker oil, was that using a thicker oil with the wrong specs, thinking that it will help just because advertised viscosity is higher will not effect blow by in a positive way, although he could use a thicker oil on the right specs, or a thinner oil on the right specs and get effective results.



-As it seems you do not read what I type, I already said that with higher cylinder pressures one will get more blow by, so instead of trying to be a smart-***, try reading properly what I type.


-Your effort to state something which is far from it, as a pragmatical fact, seems ridiculous to me. No, I do not agree with what you said. There is no drain back problems when one uses the right viscosity oil, no matter what that is, of the right molecular characteristics for a specific engine.



-As for your questions, you are again confused, as instead of addressing them to the O.P, you are addressing them to me, my setup has no excessive blow by issues whatsoever, in fact it has the least blow by it could ever have for a high horsepower setup it is, I also use the right oil in all aspects, clearances, bearing wise, etc.



-Third time confused, do not confuse the way you do things apparently, or are used to with people you relate to, I have no need to save any face in regards to such matters and in general, such tactics are for cowards who do not stand behind their views as they should be and or do not deal with the consequences of their actions and sayings as they should.



A word of advice, if you have no intention of defending views you represent in the right way, then there is no point in using these in any way.



Concentrate your interest and focus on the O.P's thread and questions regarding his setup if you wish to help, and let me be concerned about mine.







Marios

Last edited by Evo8cy; Nov 21, 2018 at 09:09 AM. Reason: typo
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Old Nov 21, 2018, 09:41 AM
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Good info guys!
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