The only way an AEM (or any stand-alone) will make more power is by digging into the safety margin (against detonation). Stock ECU based systems dont allow you to do this. In fact, they have in place reactive (and predictive) strategies that make the car run richer with a variable negative ignition trim when knock is detected or anticipated. This is good. It's not a short-coming.

Stand-alones are reasonably dumb devices that assume that operating conditions don't change substantially. At a fundamental level, even its method of load determination (by the MAP sensor) isn't capable of measuring actually airflow/load. This is their biggest downfall. Lack of adaptability. This is why stand-alone users seeking max knock-free performance are always fiddling with them as the conditions change. Whereas those who run capable stock ECU based systems (reflash or XEDE) rarely run into this problem, don't leave safe hp on the table and, most importantly, don't suffer from catastrophic engine failure on the road, the strip or even the track.

My 2c,
shiv

 

I would like to know what the AEM does to make more power then a Utec or XEDE? All three have timing and fuel control over different load and RPM. From what I have read, the only reason the AEM makes more power is due to, tuning it, w/ race gas and turning off the knock sensor.

edit: I guess Shiv answered this before I finished typing.

 

I'd like to see the S2000 even run with a re-flashed ECU...I think AEM needs to be reserved for after you've done way too much to the car for the ECU to understand, otherwishe, I agree with you totally shiv, thus far I've actually now heard that the UTEC and the XEDE are both really great systems for when you don't have too much done to the car (and yes, there is a too much, it's that point where you hit the gas turning left and somehow your Evo does a 720)

 

All the piggybacks are not created with equal capabilities, and you almost certainly have not had all of them on your car. If you're previous experience refers to safc's and similar gadgets, then we are speaking apples and oranges. Certain devices (e.g. Xede and apparently UTEC) are comprehensive and capable, requiring a laptop, and a reasonable degree of expertise and skill to program effectively. Let's keep things in a proper perspective.

As far as 'the most power', I'll choose the most power that can be had from a given combination with enough reliability to use it for thousands upon thousands of miles, and with the ability to adapt to changing conditions (which are inevitable), and retain OBDII. Not everyone has these same requirements (e.g. dedicated drag strip cars), and plenty persons on these boards jump to buy things they just don't need. By no means do I need to offer this as excuse for anything where an Xede is concerned, as I'm presently staring at my turbo's limits with it (read: not much more to gain). Furthermore, Shiv has already demonstrated the ability to match AMS' GT35r power numbers with an Xede - some 200whp (DJ) better than where I am. Quite frankly, I don't need any more power than that...or even that much if I want to keep things screwed together for the long haul.

The bottom line is so long as one has the ability to control air, fuel, and spark with sufficient accuracy, it's up to the tuner, not the device.

 

There are manny good systems out there but all the high HP Evos(600+) out ther that I have seen have been running the AEM ems. The AEM has knock control which can be turned off or on. From my personal usage of the Aem Myself and others have had no problems. There is always more than one way to skin a cat congrats to you for your fine tunning.

 

Had my EMS for a while now and it drives like stock. Never had a problem and Im putting out 500whp+ depending on the boost im at. Its all in the tuner and I happen to have one of the best tuning it.

 

More higher hp EVOs are presently running an EMS primarily because it's heavily marketed by several vendors/tuners who sell them.

However, the point here is that an EMS is not needed to make 600+hp reliably, 'safely', with good streetability, and with full tuning flexibility, period.

 

Yeah this is a great unit , I am doing really well so far

I'll be upgrading to a bigger turbo soon, we'll see how it holds up against it. The thing is that it is a new product and it doesn't have much following yet, though it has a lot to offer. My set up can read boost, read my PLX devices wideband, control fuel/timing and datalog pretty much everything. Right now it doesn't monitor knock but it will pretty soon. I will be ordering a knock link to take care of this till the option is added to the ECU+.

For more info please see below.

www.ecuplus.com

 

Shiv, I read through the XEDE product literature, and I respect your proven abilities as a tuner. You have a good product that offers great value for money, but your comments about standalones "lacking adaptability", "lacking resolution" etc would be very misleading for someone who isn't too familiar with the subject. Maybe SOME standalones aren't that good, but not all are bad.

 

FWIW, the most frequent occurrence of misleading information that I've observed in these threads is where 'parrots' (people who just repeat what they've heard) advise others that they need a standalone. This is bullsh$t. Shiv merely illustrated this fact by pointing out the limitations inherent to MAP based systems.

 

So what about standalones that can do MAP, MAP/EMAP, TPS, MAF, practically anything you can throw at it? They don't suffer from these limitations. What I read from his 2 posts here is that he's saying a standalone "can never be as good as a piggyback", which I disagree with.

 

First: I own a AEM EMS, in hind-sight I don't know if it was the best way to spend my money because driving/suspension/braking modifications are far better ways to spend your money for road-racing/autocross. But, if your like 80% of the Evolution owners out there who want more power and like drag-racing, it's the best modification you can make for your car - bar none.

Second: Want proof? Compare the dyno numbers the Vishnu achieved (a very competent tuner on a really nice piggy-back) with the numbers TT (sells a lot of AEM EMSs) achieved. The EMS numbers are much higher. Secondarily, the features of a stand-alone like the EMS just can't be matched, period. Look at the feature list, look at the software functions, then try and compare it to a UTEC or EXEDE, etc. You can't, it's just a better piece of hardware and software. Now, if your like myself and run 19Psi and want to go faster around turns, it's not like the extra horsepower are going to make a difference unless you've already maximized your driving, tire selection, suspension and braking.

Third: "X Tuner just says it's better because they sell it." Well, most of the vendors who sell the EMS also sell the UTEC and SAFC, and their profit margin can be just as high on many other solutions. Shiv is actually the only tuner on this forum who doesn't sell the EMS, UTEC, S-AFC.

Fourth: The drivability and safety features of the EMS can equal, if not best, any piggyback or reflash. It takes time and someone who knows what they're doing. To say that you can't get the same safety margin with a EMS is just plain wrong; download the software and look at the advanced knock control features. Now, if your tuner is incompetent and/or doesn't spend enough time (or you don't spend enough money) your drivability and safety margin could be lacking. Trust me, a bad tune (no AIT sensor, no knock control) blew my engine.

 

The cars equipped with AMS turbo kits Shiv tunes gives virtually identical numbers to AMS' own comparably equipped car with an EMS. This is fact. Can he get a little more power out of it? Yes. Will it compromise the margin of safety? Yes. There's your difference.


Shiv was discussing the limitations of a MAP based system (which cannot measure actual air flow) as opposed to a MAF based system, as well as OBDII. There are pros and cons to everything where this is concerned, although they tend not to be equally discussed.

 

EVOs with cat-backs and XEDE's at TT are making 300whp. EVOs with full exhausts are making 315whp. EVOs with full exhausts and cams are making around 325-330whp on their dyno. A car with an upgraded manifold and other bolt-on trinkets made 360whp on their dyno. All with XEDEs. If we get more aggressive with the tune, they will knock audibly and pull back timing. To this date, no one to my knowledge has had a tuning related engine failure with the XEDE.

It tries to do more things. This is very different than being a "better piece of hardware." Your motor failed not too long ago, didn't it? If it was a "better piece of hardwre", it would have guarded against that.

Now that's just silly. Why would we sell things which simply don't meet the goals that we believe should be met? Why are you even talking about the S-AFC? It has limited fuel tunability with no ignition or boost control. The UTEC? Why would we sell something that approaches the tuning solution from the opposite direction of what we feel is necessary. As for the EMS, it's not an appropriate mail-order solution. I'd go so far as to say that every application needs custom tuning from a competant tuner in order to maximize power. And even then, a lot of the failsafes that exist with the stock ECU aren't present. Sure you can load a detuned, super-conservative map to account for the lack of adaptability but then you're making less power than the other options you mentioned.

Okay.. Then wait until temp, baro pressure, intake charge temp or octane change substantially. Oh wait, you have, and your engine failed.

Shiv

 

Fifth: asside from maybe one more 150 dollar part, my Evo drives like a little go-cart on it's Toyo track tires, not much I want to spend on that at all, gotta be able to keep up with the Z06 after the corners too and that's a little hard no matter how much you spend on brakes, tires, and suspension. So that's why I was asking, it could use a tighter turning radius, but I dont think that's possible.