Atp And Ams
Well,
I decided not reply back to this thread as many friends asked me that some people will never see the point but I am going to throw in my 2 cents.
If some of you can’t see the value of a stock EVO making 120 WHP over stock on pump just from dropping a turbo kit for $2399 then I don’t know what’s going to satisfy you??
If some of you cant see the point of making 160WHP over stock with race gas just from a turbo kit then I am not sure what going to satisfy you?
My numbers above are proven on dyno runs and dyno sheets are attached to this thread. Having a shiny manifold or bling bling exhaust is not going to give you power, in fact it will get you pulled over.
Spending $2399 on a turbo kit that makes 10 to 15 WHP less than AMS and saving the $2000 left to make your EVO faster is the same equation of buying a GSR and making it faster than an MR.
What I found ironic (I have been a customer for AMS and RnR as well and I am still a customer) is that no dyno sheets are being posted beside mine (I stress this point) I see no dyno sheets and I see TALK, TALK and TALK. I have a dyno sheet from a stock EVO with no cams, cam gears, no bigger IC no engine work and so on. All the numbers above that people have posted from AMS have 2.3 engine or cams or IC or all these parts (the whole package). It seems that people don’t read my posts and they jump over it.
Can someone tell me if I don’t have a valid point here?? Please answer with facts.
I decided not reply back to this thread as many friends asked me that some people will never see the point but I am going to throw in my 2 cents.
If some of you can’t see the value of a stock EVO making 120 WHP over stock on pump just from dropping a turbo kit for $2399 then I don’t know what’s going to satisfy you??
If some of you cant see the point of making 160WHP over stock with race gas just from a turbo kit then I am not sure what going to satisfy you?
My numbers above are proven on dyno runs and dyno sheets are attached to this thread. Having a shiny manifold or bling bling exhaust is not going to give you power, in fact it will get you pulled over.
Spending $2399 on a turbo kit that makes 10 to 15 WHP less than AMS and saving the $2000 left to make your EVO faster is the same equation of buying a GSR and making it faster than an MR.
What I found ironic (I have been a customer for AMS and RnR as well and I am still a customer) is that no dyno sheets are being posted beside mine (I stress this point) I see no dyno sheets and I see TALK, TALK and TALK. I have a dyno sheet from a stock EVO with no cams, cam gears, no bigger IC no engine work and so on. All the numbers above that people have posted from AMS have 2.3 engine or cams or IC or all these parts (the whole package). It seems that people don’t read my posts and they jump over it.
Can someone tell me if I don’t have a valid point here?? Please answer with facts.
Az3ar,
Regarding dyno sheets, I agree with you. I'd love to see some dyno sheets for the AMS turbos. Not so much for bench racing purposes. I'm not so interested in raw numbers but I'd like to see comparisions made between stock and the various AMS upgrades. Basically I'd like to see them do something like Buschur is doing with his staged upgrades. There are very few dyno sheets for the AMS products that have been posted. When I asked AMS for a dyno sheet for a AMS 2.3 stroker with a GT35R it wasn't available. According to Eric he's got one now but I haven't seen it. Either the dyno plots look like crap and we have a huge case of cognitive dissonance (very possible given the outlay of cash for an AMS kit) or there aren't that many cars that have been dyno'd that are outfitted with the AMS kits. Regardless, the paranoid conspiracy theorist in me is waving the red flag.
I hadn't seen your dyno sheet earlier. It's interesting to see a comparision between the ATP kit and the BR440 below. Basically the same turbo, right? I think you can see where the supporting mods start to "kick in". I've got 500rpm earlier spool and a top end that doesn't fall flat. I would love to see the same turbo with an equal length header such as the one offered by AMS. I bet we'd see spool as good as stock. At the risk of sounding like I'm making excuses (I guess I am), my car fell on it's face after 5,500rpm. I think due mainly to about 5 different boost leaks and some overly aggressive timing for the crappy fuel I was running resulted in the ECU pulling timing. My car was particularly knock prone. I couldn't boost over 21 psi without pulling timing.
When I finish building my 2.227L and bolt on a GT35R, I'll post an overlay graph.
Regarding dyno sheets, I agree with you. I'd love to see some dyno sheets for the AMS turbos. Not so much for bench racing purposes. I'm not so interested in raw numbers but I'd like to see comparisions made between stock and the various AMS upgrades. Basically I'd like to see them do something like Buschur is doing with his staged upgrades. There are very few dyno sheets for the AMS products that have been posted. When I asked AMS for a dyno sheet for a AMS 2.3 stroker with a GT35R it wasn't available. According to Eric he's got one now but I haven't seen it. Either the dyno plots look like crap and we have a huge case of cognitive dissonance (very possible given the outlay of cash for an AMS kit) or there aren't that many cars that have been dyno'd that are outfitted with the AMS kits. Regardless, the paranoid conspiracy theorist in me is waving the red flag.
I hadn't seen your dyno sheet earlier. It's interesting to see a comparision between the ATP kit and the BR440 below. Basically the same turbo, right? I think you can see where the supporting mods start to "kick in". I've got 500rpm earlier spool and a top end that doesn't fall flat. I would love to see the same turbo with an equal length header such as the one offered by AMS. I bet we'd see spool as good as stock. At the risk of sounding like I'm making excuses (I guess I am), my car fell on it's face after 5,500rpm. I think due mainly to about 5 different boost leaks and some overly aggressive timing for the crappy fuel I was running resulted in the ECU pulling timing. My car was particularly knock prone. I couldn't boost over 21 psi without pulling timing.
When I finish building my 2.227L and bolt on a GT35R, I'll post an overlay graph.
Last edited by propellerhead; Dec 14, 2004 at 06:21 AM.
Evolving Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 122
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From: Germany
well Az3ar I think people are making fun because you are so strong fighting for your product, which isn't bad for sure (I know 3 kits here in germany already).
The work you do for ATP is as good as any of the markting and sales guys do for their products.
I think most people that say AMS is great don't have their Turbo kit installed at all.
They might have an exhaust or injectors or some other toys.
My recommendation for you is: keep it easy and don't answer every post that is made.
We all know by now that you are happy and stand behind ATP. Many consider their
kits over AMS just for costs and the appreciated sleeper aspects.
.......untill we get the real 10.5 20g ti sleeper
The work you do for ATP is as good as any of the markting and sales guys do for their products.
I think most people that say AMS is great don't have their Turbo kit installed at all.
They might have an exhaust or injectors or some other toys.
My recommendation for you is: keep it easy and don't answer every post that is made.
We all know by now that you are happy and stand behind ATP. Many consider their
kits over AMS just for costs and the appreciated sleeper aspects.
.......untill we get the real 10.5 20g ti sleeper
Originally Posted by propellerhead
Az3ar,
Regarding dyno sheets, I agree with you. I'd love to see some dyno sheets for the AMS turbos. Not so much for bench racing purposes. I'm not so interested in raw numbers but I'd like to see comparisions made between stock and the various AMS upgrades. Basically I'd like to see them do something like Buschur is doing with his staged upgrades. There are very few dyno sheets for the AMS products that have been posted. When I asked AMS for a dyno sheet for a AMS 2.3 stroker with a GT35R it wasn't available. According to Eric he's got one now but I haven't seen it. Either the dyno plots look like crap and we have a huge case of cognitive dissonance (very possible given the outlay of cash for an AMS kit) or there aren't that many cars that have been dyno'd that are outfitted with the AMS kits. Regardless, the paranoid conspiracy theorist in me is waving the red flag.
I hadn't seen your dyno sheet earlier. It's interesting to see a comparision between the ATP kit and the BR440 below. Basically the same turbo, right? I think you can see where the supporting mods start to "kick in". I've got 500rpm earlier spool and a top end that doesn't fall flat. I would love to see the same turbo with an equal length header such as the one offered by AMS. I bet we'd see spool as good as stock. At the risk of sounding like I'm making excuses (I guess I am), my car fell on it's face after 5,500rpm. I think due mainly to about 5 different boost leaks and some overly aggressive timing for the crappy fuel I was running resulted in the ECU pulling timing. My car was particularly knock prone. I couldn't boost over 21 psi without pulling timing.
When I finish building my 2.227L and bolt on a GT35R, I'll post an overlay graph.
Regarding dyno sheets, I agree with you. I'd love to see some dyno sheets for the AMS turbos. Not so much for bench racing purposes. I'm not so interested in raw numbers but I'd like to see comparisions made between stock and the various AMS upgrades. Basically I'd like to see them do something like Buschur is doing with his staged upgrades. There are very few dyno sheets for the AMS products that have been posted. When I asked AMS for a dyno sheet for a AMS 2.3 stroker with a GT35R it wasn't available. According to Eric he's got one now but I haven't seen it. Either the dyno plots look like crap and we have a huge case of cognitive dissonance (very possible given the outlay of cash for an AMS kit) or there aren't that many cars that have been dyno'd that are outfitted with the AMS kits. Regardless, the paranoid conspiracy theorist in me is waving the red flag.
I hadn't seen your dyno sheet earlier. It's interesting to see a comparision between the ATP kit and the BR440 below. Basically the same turbo, right? I think you can see where the supporting mods start to "kick in". I've got 500rpm earlier spool and a top end that doesn't fall flat. I would love to see the same turbo with an equal length header such as the one offered by AMS. I bet we'd see spool as good as stock. At the risk of sounding like I'm making excuses (I guess I am), my car fell on it's face after 5,500rpm. I think due mainly to about 5 different boost leaks and some overly aggressive timing for the crappy fuel I was running resulted in the ECU pulling timing. My car was particularly knock prone. I couldn't boost over 21 psi without pulling timing.
When I finish building my 2.227L and bolt on a GT35R, I'll post an overlay graph.
Very nice numbers above. BR 440 no doubt is a great kit. I would like to know what mods do you have beside the turbo 440?.
I made 350 on stock EVO with hollow cat and stock manifold using 91 gas.
Originally Posted by Dom
well Az3ar I think people are making fun because you are so strong fighting for your product, which isn't bad for sure (I know 3 kits here in germany already).
The work you do for ATP is as good as any of the markting and sales guys do for their products.
I think most people that say AMS is great don't have their Turbo kit installed at all.
They might have an exhaust or injectors or some other toys.
My recommendation for you is: keep it easy and don't answer every post that is made.
We all know by now that you are happy and stand behind ATP. Many consider their
kits over AMS just for costs and the appreciated sleeper aspects.
.......untill we get the real 10.5 20g ti sleeper
The work you do for ATP is as good as any of the markting and sales guys do for their products.
I think most people that say AMS is great don't have their Turbo kit installed at all.
They might have an exhaust or injectors or some other toys.
My recommendation for you is: keep it easy and don't answer every post that is made.
We all know by now that you are happy and stand behind ATP. Many consider their
kits over AMS just for costs and the appreciated sleeper aspects.
.......untill we get the real 10.5 20g ti sleeper
Originally Posted by Az3ar
Very nice numbers above. BR 440 no doubt is a great kit. I would like to know what mods do you have beside the turbo 440?.
I made 350 on stock EVO with hollow cat and stock manifold using 91 gas.
I made 350 on stock EVO with hollow cat and stock manifold using 91 gas.
Another thing to note is that a compression test revealed some pretty crappy ring seating. (150,150,150,170)
Regardless, my point was that the supporting mods help "round out" the power delivery and improve the spool. I'm not debating the value of the ATP kit. There's no doubt it delivers alot of bang for the buck and allows the user to build on it as a base. I'd like to see a similar graph as your's documenting a straight BR440 bolt on.
Originally Posted by propellerhead
Good point. I followed the BR stages (TB-catless, FMIC, cams-264s, injectors, fuel pump, etc...) and a Dynoflash. I think with the leaks repaired & adjustment of the tune to reflect the repairs, I could have been looking at 365-370whp on 93 octane.
Another thing to note is that a compression test revealed some pretty crappy ring seating. (150,150,150,170)
Regardless, my point was that the supporting mods help "round out" the power delivery and improve the spool. I'm not debating the value of the ATP kit. There's no doubt it delivers alot of bang for the buck and allows the user to build on it as a base. I'd like to see a similar graph as your's documenting a straight BR440 bolt on.
Another thing to note is that a compression test revealed some pretty crappy ring seating. (150,150,150,170)
Regardless, my point was that the supporting mods help "round out" the power delivery and improve the spool. I'm not debating the value of the ATP kit. There's no doubt it delivers alot of bang for the buck and allows the user to build on it as a base. I'd like to see a similar graph as your's documenting a straight BR440 bolt on.
I truly believe the BR 440 will spool great and deliver great power with no mods. The truth is that the EVO is a new platform in the US and we are trying to learn more about them everyday.
Is this ^ dyno plot really a br440? It sure shows different spool characteristics to the BR440 I watched dynoed on a dyno jet this weekend. v I'm looking at numbers around 4000rpm.
Originally Posted by Az3ar
Great point but there is another side of the story. If you scroll back couple pages you will find that I left this thread alone until Alex came and start throwing his un-knowledge and un-experienced thoughts. I did not defend, the author of the thread is asking and I see no reason not to answer him back. Did I offend anyone? I have reveled some truth and thoughts that's all. I don’t know why some of you are soo sensitive.
Still deciding on the GT35R and 3037
Originally Posted by Derek888
Az3ar there are some that wont agree with you or believe you. Some of them dont even have a turbo kit and they are bashing already. Dont waste anymore of your time arguing with that same someone because the bottom line is that you made those numbers and your happy with your ATP kit. Dont take any crap from people especially the ones that get on your nerves. If I made a certain amount of hp and Im happy with it then I could care less about who believes me or not. Ok now I just have to save up for my RNR kit Still deciding on the GT35R and 3037
Still deciding on the GT35R and 3037 you are right buddy and thanks for your advice. Good luck and I am sure you are making the best choice for you. I am off now to go and sign on papers for the new house that I bought
. Good luck everyone
Originally Posted by Derek888
Correct me if I am wrong but I think it was AMS that said if your not going to use race fuel then steer away from the GT35R .
Originally Posted by Derek888
Ok now I just have to save up for my RNR kit Still deciding on the GT35R and 3037
Still deciding on the GT35R and 3037 
Originally Posted by Derek888
Correct me if I am wrong but I think it was AMS that said if your not going to use race fuel then steer away from the GT35R .
Originally Posted by Smogrunner
Is this ^ dyno plot really a br440? It sure shows different spool characteristics to the BR440 I watched dynoed on a dyno jet this weekend. v I'm looking at numbers around 4000rpm.
What gear was that run done in? Mine was done in 3rd.