Engine Blew!!
Originally Posted by joeycoates
The scoring on the number 3 cylinder really makes me think that the pistons overheated like some others hinted. When you see score marks like the #3 exhibits that is indicative of some serous heat. Most all pistons have somewhat tapered walls with the crown having a smaller diameter then the skirt. The reason for this is simply for heat expansion, the head gets much hotter then the skirts do and as such it expands more then the skirts, the taper is to allow for this expansion. When the crown or head of the piston gets too hot it will over expand leading to scoring, which makes the piston and the wall even hotter, (not to mention that the piston is already hot) and it will induce detonation. It is kind of a nasty self purpetuating cycle.....
This is pure speculation based off of the pictures, but it looks like #2 had already become hot enough to both score the wall and begin to detonate, and that #3 was begining to score but had not quite reached the detonation point yet. I would also think that the guys who posted earlier were on the right track about the oil squirters not fuctioning correctly, normally a water cooling problem will be seen in the #4 piston first as it is last in line for the cool water, #1 will run coolest then #2 ect. I believe that some of the old sylvia's had three injectors that were the same with #4 being 5-10cc's higher capacity to keep #4 a bit richer to help keep it cool. Seems like it was a neat concept to me, but I do not know of anyone else doing this any more...
Anyway, you might want to see if you have something clogging the oil squirters, just an idea though.
This is pure speculation based off of the pictures, but it looks like #2 had already become hot enough to both score the wall and begin to detonate, and that #3 was begining to score but had not quite reached the detonation point yet. I would also think that the guys who posted earlier were on the right track about the oil squirters not fuctioning correctly, normally a water cooling problem will be seen in the #4 piston first as it is last in line for the cool water, #1 will run coolest then #2 ect. I believe that some of the old sylvia's had three injectors that were the same with #4 being 5-10cc's higher capacity to keep #4 a bit richer to help keep it cool. Seems like it was a neat concept to me, but I do not know of anyone else doing this any more...
Anyway, you might want to see if you have something clogging the oil squirters, just an idea though.
This is the most logical explanation. I also would think that injector was not opening all the way or the oil squinter was not working properly.
Mark (TT) tuned a flash for me on my evo when I had it. I had no issues.
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I wish I knew exactly what happened. I'm going to get the injectors looked at still to try to get to the bottom of this. I have always shifted out of 4th at 118-119mph with no problems. EGT's have always been right at 1600-1650 on the top of 4th. I'm sure I didn't hit the rev limiter on the top of 4th. I have hit it a few times trying to time the 1-2 shift right.
One thing I do know for sure is that not having a car sucks.
One thing I do know for sure is that not having a car sucks.
Originally Posted by Rastmp
What scares the crap out of me is that this can happen to anyone with a 93 octane tune....assuming you purchase bad gas.........
This is VERY TRUE. In fact one of my customers has a car making 340 whp who was living in NJ where they pump your gas for you.
What happend is that he asked for 93 but they pumped in 87 - he got a reciept for 87 and asked the attendant who said he pumped 93.
A short while later his piston looked like this guys. End of motor - lucky for him he got the reciept and was able to seek recovery from the oil company.
The reality is that cars making more and more whp beyond stock have less and less margin of error or saftey margin left in them against 87 octane fuel or the like.
The stock car will survive a occasional tank of 87 octane and live to talk about it. Its that same weak - overly rich tune that the stock ecu has that allows it to survive the 87 octane knock. As you tune for more performance and power you loose more margin of saftey and it becomes more and more critical to rely upon a known and trusted source of fuel.
The mapping on the stock Evo IX will pull so much timing if you pick up knock that the car will prob start to go backwards - just a joke - but the Evo IX does offer more protection than the VIII - 6 ignition maps in the IX, STILL - once its making 340 whp its time to take some ADDITIONAL steps to protect the engine.
As the price of gas increases, organized crime influence and shady business people are tempted to play games with fuel and sell you a tank of 87 or 89 octane fuel at 93 octane prices - an instant windfall for the criminal.
When we see customers making 340 and even 350 whp on reflahed ecus on pump gas it becomes more and more critical to play it as safe as you can to assure a good fuel supply. I have so many customers wanting the most power they can get . . . . and so few saying - "Al - please leave 10 - 15 whp less on the table and tune my car even safer" Point blank - there is no way to make maximum power out of 93 octane and leave a car which can run on 87 octane.
I dont see hardly ANY customers with the $110 knock link gauge I have on my evo.
You can MONITOR KNOCK yourself and prevent this from happening
IF YOU SPEND $4,000 or more on power mods you can spend $110 to keep it from blowing up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Assuming the engine is operating correctly, the LEDs will show only background noise which will rise in proportion to engine power output. Any abrupt rise in signal level at any time is an indication that detonation is occurring. The immediate remedy is to close the throttle. Severe detonation will destroy any engine in seconds.
Knocking is the self detonation of the unburnt fuel in the combustion chamber toward the end of combustion. The flame burns abound ten times faster than normal causing huge pressures. Possible cures for knocking are: cooler intake air; increased intake humidity; reduce load; increase RPM; enrichen or lean engine from lambda stoichiometric; improve spark; increase octane level of fuel; reduce total ignition advance etc.
Monitor engine "Noise".
Optimise advance.
Detect Detonation.
Knocking is the self detonation of the unburnt fuel in the combustion chamber toward the end of combustion. The flame burns abound ten times faster than normal causing huge pressures. Possible cures for knocking are: cooler intake air; increased intake humidity; reduce load; increase RPM; enrichen or lean engine from lambda stoichiometric; improve spark; increase octane level of fuel; reduce total ignition advance etc.
Monitor engine "Noise".
Optimise advance.
Detect Detonation.
GAS quality is not under your control - but watching for knock is
NO ONE should run a car over 320 whp without a knock link
Back in the day my mentor in turbos the famous jan shim would not sell me my first PE8120 for my wrx unless I bought a knock link to keep my engine safe.
For those who seek the guru's master advice and direction - http://www.janshim.com/motorsports/index.htm
It works great - it flashes red you back off - save a motor
Back in the day, I owned a 1991 BMW M5 with Dinan chip that specified 94 octane. I always ran a tank of 104 octane booster when I filled up as a small saftey measure to maintain the highest fuel quality.
Finally, not to preach - BUT - the customers often get boost happy, thinking if a little extra boost is good then a bit more cant hurt. This is foolish beahvior. IT IS CRITICAL to run your car at safe and reduced boost levels when running on pump gas. Using a psi or two less is a great way to insure that you do not have a problem. If someone wants to try and press the boost to 23 or 24 psi as I have seen some people do - if you get some bad gas then its game over piston.
Agsin - none of these words apply to this thread - its just an answer to the question posed about gas quality.
NOW on to some thoughts for the guy with the blown engine in this thread :
As to this particular car in this thread - its pure speculation what caused the problem but it certainly looks like a knock event.
The guy was driving for a whole year with his tune without problems so the tune is no doubt NOT to blame for this occurence.
A few suggestions from myself :
#1 - You can extract your gas from the tank and have its octane quality tested at a fuel lab - if your curious.
#2 - A poorly set up boost controlling method can lead to a boost spike when you shift into 5th gear whcih can result in knock
#3 - When the car is stuck on the rev limiter the egts get very hot - possibly a combination of running up piston temps on the rev limter and then slamming in too much boost shifting to 5th resulted in excessive thermal load on the weak stock pistons
Last edited by DynoFlash; Nov 29, 2005 at 07:10 PM.
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Originally Posted by bacalhau16
i would like to see u test the gas as Al mentioned. i think this could easily be done and was actually thinking of this the other day as i was pumping gas.
Time for me to get a knocklink, well after the hotside, and odassy battery.
I guess the knocklink would be best octane test kit money can buy - if it flashes red when you pull out of the gas station with a full tank of 93, you'll know who's the crook
I guess the knocklink would be best octane test kit money can buy - if it flashes red when you pull out of the gas station with a full tank of 93, you'll know who's the crook
Vivid Racing is the only vendor that I believe stocks them.
Precision Dyno can get them but they aren't really in the mail-order parts business. They pretty much sell what they are installing, but you can try them.
Precision Dyno can get them but they aren't really in the mail-order parts business. They pretty much sell what they are installing, but you can try them.
an injector is more likely the issue IMO..
A good reason to have your injector balanced and blueprinted... Especially after almost 60K miles..
I would think if this were just gas, the other cylinders would show damage. Also unless you had JUST filled up before the track, your ecu would have already noticed the bad gas and pulled timing.. You probably would have noticed the lack of power.
This sounds like it happened very quickly.. like an injector getting stuck.
A good reason to have your injector balanced and blueprinted... Especially after almost 60K miles..
I would think if this were just gas, the other cylinders would show damage. Also unless you had JUST filled up before the track, your ecu would have already noticed the bad gas and pulled timing.. You probably would have noticed the lack of power.
This sounds like it happened very quickly.. like an injector getting stuck.
I have used knock link on my Subaru WRX and had it on the highest sensitive setting. It works and works well but for me I could hear it before the knock link was active. It did confirm that it was knock and not me just hearing things. But I have a sensitive and paranoia hearing system.
Knock link is a very nice a simple device to use and set up. The only issue is that it's a box abut the size of a pack of cigarettes and it's awkward to mount. On nasioc if you do a search you can find how some WRX owners took it apart and mounted the lights into the dash for a clean install. Me I was too lazy to do that and like all the gadgets and clutter.
Knock link is a very nice a simple device to use and set up. The only issue is that it's a box abut the size of a pack of cigarettes and it's awkward to mount. On nasioc if you do a search you can find how some WRX owners took it apart and mounted the lights into the dash for a clean install. Me I was too lazy to do that and like all the gadgets and clutter.
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From: Oceanside, CA
I have the block pulled out of the car now. I'm not sure if it is still good since there is quite a bit of material already removed from the cylinder wall of the number two cylinder.
Last edited by bpclements; Dec 6, 2005 at 10:47 AM.
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From: Miami DSM
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
I am playing Truth Squad today even though I am not a member
This is VERY TRUE. In fact one of my customers has a car making 340 whp who was living in NJ where they pump your gas for you.
What happend is that he asked for 93 but they pumped in 87 - he got a reciept for 87 and asked the attendant who said he pumped 93.
A short while later his piston looked like this guys. End of motor - lucky for him he got the reciept and was able to seek recovery from the oil company.
The reality is that cars making more and more whp beyond stock have less and less margin of error or saftey margin left in them against 87 octane fuel or the like.
The stock car will survive a occasional tank of 87 octane and live to talk about it. Its that same weak - overly rich tune that the stock ecu has that allows it to survive the 87 octane knock. As you tune for more performance and power you loose more margin of saftey and it becomes more and more critical to rely upon a known and trusted source of fuel.
The mapping on the stock Evo IX will pull so much timing if you pick up knock that the car will prob start to go backwards - just a joke - but the Evo IX does offer more protection than the VIII - 6 ignition maps in the IX, STILL - once its making 340 whp its time to take some ADDITIONAL steps to protect the engine.
As the price of gas increases, organized crime influence and shady business people are tempted to play games with fuel and sell you a tank of 87 or 89 octane fuel at 93 octane prices - an instant windfall for the criminal.
When we see customers making 340 and even 350 whp on reflahed ecus on pump gas it becomes more and more critical to play it as safe as you can to assure a good fuel supply. I have so many customers wanting the most power they can get . . . . and so few saying - "Al - please leave 10 - 15 whp less on the table and tune my car even safer" Point blank - there is no way to make maximum power out of 93 octane and leave a car which can run on 87 octane.
I dont see hardly ANY customers with the $110 knock link gauge I have on my evo.
You can MONITOR KNOCK yourself and prevent this from happening
IF YOU SPEND $4,000 or more on power mods you can spend $110 to keep it from blowing up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GAS quality is not under your control - but watching for knock is
NO ONE should run a car over 320 whp without a knock link
Back in the day my mentor in turbos the famous jan shim would not sell me my first PE8120 for my wrx unless I bought a knock link to keep my engine safe.
For those who seek the guru's master advice and direction - http://www.janshim.com/motorsports/index.htm
It works great - it flashes red you back off - save a motor
Back in the day, I owned a 1991 BMW M5 with Dinan chip that specified 94 octane. I always ran a tank of 104 octane booster when I filled up as a small saftey measure to maintain the highest fuel quality.
Finally, not to preach - BUT - the customers often get boost happy, thinking if a little extra boost is good then a bit more cant hurt. This is foolish beahvior. IT IS CRITICAL to run your car at safe and reduced boost levels when running on pump gas. Using a psi or two less is a great way to insure that you do not have a problem. If someone wants to try and press the boost to 23 or 24 psi as I have seen some people do - if you get some bad gas then its game over piston.
Agsin - none of these words apply to this thread - its just an answer to the question posed about gas quality.
NOW on to some thoughts for the guy with the blown engine in this thread :
As to this particular car in this thread - its pure speculation what caused the problem but it certainly looks like a knock event.
The guy was driving for a whole year with his tune without problems so the tune is no doubt NOT to blame for this occurence.
A few suggestions from myself :
#1 - You can extract your gas from the tank and have its octane quality tested at a fuel lab - if your curious.
#2 - A poorly set up boost controlling method can lead to a boost spike when you shift into 5th gear whcih can result in knock
#3 - When the car is stuck on the rev limiter the egts get very hot - possibly a combination of running up piston temps on the rev limter and then slamming in too much boost shifting to 5th resulted in excessive thermal load on the weak stock pistons
This is VERY TRUE. In fact one of my customers has a car making 340 whp who was living in NJ where they pump your gas for you.
What happend is that he asked for 93 but they pumped in 87 - he got a reciept for 87 and asked the attendant who said he pumped 93.
A short while later his piston looked like this guys. End of motor - lucky for him he got the reciept and was able to seek recovery from the oil company.
The reality is that cars making more and more whp beyond stock have less and less margin of error or saftey margin left in them against 87 octane fuel or the like.
The stock car will survive a occasional tank of 87 octane and live to talk about it. Its that same weak - overly rich tune that the stock ecu has that allows it to survive the 87 octane knock. As you tune for more performance and power you loose more margin of saftey and it becomes more and more critical to rely upon a known and trusted source of fuel.
The mapping on the stock Evo IX will pull so much timing if you pick up knock that the car will prob start to go backwards - just a joke - but the Evo IX does offer more protection than the VIII - 6 ignition maps in the IX, STILL - once its making 340 whp its time to take some ADDITIONAL steps to protect the engine.
As the price of gas increases, organized crime influence and shady business people are tempted to play games with fuel and sell you a tank of 87 or 89 octane fuel at 93 octane prices - an instant windfall for the criminal.
When we see customers making 340 and even 350 whp on reflahed ecus on pump gas it becomes more and more critical to play it as safe as you can to assure a good fuel supply. I have so many customers wanting the most power they can get . . . . and so few saying - "Al - please leave 10 - 15 whp less on the table and tune my car even safer" Point blank - there is no way to make maximum power out of 93 octane and leave a car which can run on 87 octane.
I dont see hardly ANY customers with the $110 knock link gauge I have on my evo.
You can MONITOR KNOCK yourself and prevent this from happening
IF YOU SPEND $4,000 or more on power mods you can spend $110 to keep it from blowing up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GAS quality is not under your control - but watching for knock is
NO ONE should run a car over 320 whp without a knock link
Back in the day my mentor in turbos the famous jan shim would not sell me my first PE8120 for my wrx unless I bought a knock link to keep my engine safe.
For those who seek the guru's master advice and direction - http://www.janshim.com/motorsports/index.htm
It works great - it flashes red you back off - save a motor
Back in the day, I owned a 1991 BMW M5 with Dinan chip that specified 94 octane. I always ran a tank of 104 octane booster when I filled up as a small saftey measure to maintain the highest fuel quality.
Finally, not to preach - BUT - the customers often get boost happy, thinking if a little extra boost is good then a bit more cant hurt. This is foolish beahvior. IT IS CRITICAL to run your car at safe and reduced boost levels when running on pump gas. Using a psi or two less is a great way to insure that you do not have a problem. If someone wants to try and press the boost to 23 or 24 psi as I have seen some people do - if you get some bad gas then its game over piston.
Agsin - none of these words apply to this thread - its just an answer to the question posed about gas quality.
NOW on to some thoughts for the guy with the blown engine in this thread :
As to this particular car in this thread - its pure speculation what caused the problem but it certainly looks like a knock event.
The guy was driving for a whole year with his tune without problems so the tune is no doubt NOT to blame for this occurence.
A few suggestions from myself :
#1 - You can extract your gas from the tank and have its octane quality tested at a fuel lab - if your curious.
#2 - A poorly set up boost controlling method can lead to a boost spike when you shift into 5th gear whcih can result in knock
#3 - When the car is stuck on the rev limiter the egts get very hot - possibly a combination of running up piston temps on the rev limter and then slamming in too much boost shifting to 5th resulted in excessive thermal load on the weak stock pistons