View Poll Results: Which do you like?
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 1013. You may not vote on this poll
Poll: FMIC - Front Mount Intercooler
Blow all the smoke you want bbar, and start building and selling magic intercoolers. If people buy the "tornado fuel saver" you are sure to make a fortune selling them to fools. I'm done with you.
Keith
Keith
Last edited by Fourdoor; Jan 8, 2006 at 06:42 PM.
Originally Posted by Fourdoor
On the pot of water example: You are looking at it from a vapor pressure viewpoint. Your explanation is correct, but it is not relevent to the point I was trying to illistrate about heat transfer and phase change from liquid to vapor, and phase change from vapor to liquid.
If the cool outside air is saturated with water (fog conditions) and you take a pot of hot water outside and it steams (which it will do) does it or does it not carry heat energy out of the pot of water up into the air? You know as well as I do that when the water undergoes a phase change into steam it does carry heat energy up into the air and as soon as it cools just a tinny little bit (heat energy leaving the steam into the surrounding air) the steam will undergo a phase change back into liquid water.
You do agree that an intercooler (or anything else) that says cold (below ambient) and wet (moisture droplets on the outside surface) in a dry (non moisture saturated) air stream while having a huge heat load (hot charge air comming in) would violate all physical laws, common sense, and emperical data..... correct?
Later,
Keith
If the cool outside air is saturated with water (fog conditions) and you take a pot of hot water outside and it steams (which it will do) does it or does it not carry heat energy out of the pot of water up into the air? You know as well as I do that when the water undergoes a phase change into steam it does carry heat energy up into the air and as soon as it cools just a tinny little bit (heat energy leaving the steam into the surrounding air) the steam will undergo a phase change back into liquid water.
You do agree that an intercooler (or anything else) that says cold (below ambient) and wet (moisture droplets on the outside surface) in a dry (non moisture saturated) air stream while having a huge heat load (hot charge air comming in) would violate all physical laws, common sense, and emperical data..... correct?
Later,
Keith
in all technicality you can absolutely have something cooled below ambient. the temperature is merely an average measurement of the macroscropic system. the actual occurance is ALWAYS a standard deviation of being cooled less than and being less than cooled to ambient. and the average is what is measured and what someone would "typically" think of the limit being ambient temperature.
with that said... the probability of something being cooled significantly, say 10% below ambient is .9 to the number of particles that are required to act in such a way as to make this happen, and that is a very small number.
however i believe the issue we've been looking at all along is different. the FACT is that when nisei did their testing... when they put their sensor in the face of wind... it read funny, funny in a way htat is NO GOOD FOR DISPLAYING USABLE INFO. similarly when bbar uses his aem temp sensor in the ic pipe... there is some sort of cooling going on... maybe have something to do with the thermocoupler nature of the sensor... i don't know... bu thte fact is... that this phenomenon does happen and it has nothing to do with violating anything and it has nothing to do with cooling things below ambient... it is merely a quirk of the system that we have to deal with and we are limited on knowledge to elucidate.
there is nothing non physical about this... there is nothing miraculous and there is nothing cheating about it... it's the way the sensor is... and you guys have to realize that with any testing equiptment you can't take the NUMBERS EXACTLY for what they are... cuz the act of measurement comes with in and of itself its own characteristics. just cuz it says it's below ambient does not mean it IS it means that's what the sensor is picking up.
bare in mind this is after i've already said that in all technicality you CAN have below ambient temps. and i've cited numerous ways throughout this thread... however this is NOT the issue.
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu
FWIW, the bumper support is critical to front impact protection. If it were to be removed and the car was involved in even an minor accident, you'd see considerable front end damage. So much, in fact, that an insurance adjuster (upon inspection) is within his rights to deny all or part of the claim. It's just one of those things that require a caveat emptor of sorts. Okay for a race car but might not be acceptable for a regular customer and the compromises that he'd be willing to accept.
my 2c,
shiv
ps. Ha.. Fourdoor beat me to it.
my 2c,
shiv
ps. Ha.. Fourdoor beat me to it.
+1
Had Buschur or Nisei posted any results on a customer car yet?, I don't feel like reading 320 posts again, I posted at the fifty some post and I abandoned since.
I have money burning in my hands, I am a customer ready for a FMIC upgrade, have the forum decided and had the tuners proved already what makes more power?
Nisei, Buschur, send a FMIC this way, I will test it on my own car, I am neutral. I can have my car dynoed with both IC's and I wouldn't hurt your feeling, if one makes more power than the other there is no more questions to ask.
Thanks!!
I have money burning in my hands, I am a customer ready for a FMIC upgrade, have the forum decided and had the tuners proved already what makes more power?
Nisei, Buschur, send a FMIC this way, I will test it on my own car, I am neutral. I can have my car dynoed with both IC's and I wouldn't hurt your feeling, if one makes more power than the other there is no more questions to ask.
Thanks!!
As far as I know, this topic hasn't being too informative for the last few days,.. here I am asking a very specific question about performance, what kind of numbers(HP/TQ) the same car under same dyno under same conditions under same mods will make.
At this point the price, the fitting,the temp inlet, the temp outlet, the pressure drop,the size,the shape and the advertizing is absolutely irrelevant to me, just prove or let a customer prove how much HP/TQ can each FMIC produce on a car under identical conditions. Is that that difficult? what does it take? Money? a customer car?, a customer pitching money? I am all ears.
This topic will continue with secondary comments about impact crash beam, temp , pressure drop and all that but HP/TQ is THE most important topic here. People can spend more money if needed, for the most part, everyone wants the most power/tq, then the money issue can be solved.
just my agonizing .2c get me some Dyno numbers bro!!
At this point the price, the fitting,the temp inlet, the temp outlet, the pressure drop,the size,the shape and the advertizing is absolutely irrelevant to me, just prove or let a customer prove how much HP/TQ can each FMIC produce on a car under identical conditions. Is that that difficult? what does it take? Money? a customer car?, a customer pitching money? I am all ears.
This topic will continue with secondary comments about impact crash beam, temp , pressure drop and all that but HP/TQ is THE most important topic here. People can spend more money if needed, for the most part, everyone wants the most power/tq, then the money issue can be solved.
just my agonizing .2c get me some Dyno numbers bro!!
not familiar with sbr? where can i see it?
Originally Posted by 4g63girl
if i had the chance to do it all over again i would go with sbr's FMIC. i loved in on my srt-4... best mod i did to it
emery
emery
Originally Posted by fromWRXtoEVO
Had Buschur or Nisei posted any results on a customer car yet?, I don't feel like reading 320 posts again, I posted at the fifty some post and I abandoned since.
fromWRXtoEVO,
I didn't test back to back on the dyno with a customers car. I did it with my own car. I don't know if Nisei owns an EVO or not. I believe they did use a customers car.
I posted the data that I came up with. I also said the Nisei is a nice enough intercooler and the performance of both were closely matched.
You'll have to decide for yourself what to do from here based on all this crap to read through
We have ours instock and I have dropped our pricing to get more competitive.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
I didn't test back to back on the dyno with a customers car. I did it with my own car. I don't know if Nisei owns an EVO or not. I believe they did use a customers car.
I posted the data that I came up with. I also said the Nisei is a nice enough intercooler and the performance of both were closely matched.
You'll have to decide for yourself what to do from here based on all this crap to read through
We have ours instock and I have dropped our pricing to get more competitive.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
...also, for what it is worth, I've been leaning more and more toward Buschur's support of the community. Who else publicly compares other's products to their own, and post's up the results for all to see. I was particularly blown away by the O2 housing post.
Where I was looking at the Nisei, I'm now looking at the Buschur Race intercooler after reading through this entire thread. Where pricing is comparable, I can't help but think it's best to support those who support us the most. Not taking anything away from Nisei of course, I just can't help but "feel" better about Buschur for all that he gives back to the community as a whole. If you want to do a search of my posts, this is not the first time I've stated such...
Where I was looking at the Nisei, I'm now looking at the Buschur Race intercooler after reading through this entire thread. Where pricing is comparable, I can't help but think it's best to support those who support us the most. Not taking anything away from Nisei of course, I just can't help but "feel" better about Buschur for all that he gives back to the community as a whole. If you want to do a search of my posts, this is not the first time I've stated such...
Originally Posted by Zeus
...also, for what it is worth, I've been leaning more and more toward Buschur's support of the community. Who else publicly compares other's products to their own, and post's up the results for all to see. I was particularly blown away by the O2 housing post.
Where I was looking at the Nisei, I'm now looking at the Buschur Race intercooler after reading through this entire thread. Where pricing is comparable, I can't help but think it's best to support those who support us the most. Not taking anything away from Nisei of course, I just can't help but "feel" better about Buschur for all that he gives back to the community as a whole. If you want to do a search of my posts, this is not the first time I've stated such...
Where I was looking at the Nisei, I'm now looking at the Buschur Race intercooler after reading through this entire thread. Where pricing is comparable, I can't help but think it's best to support those who support us the most. Not taking anything away from Nisei of course, I just can't help but "feel" better about Buschur for all that he gives back to the community as a whole. If you want to do a search of my posts, this is not the first time I've stated such...
