Just to add one more thing, someone mentioned the fact that without the voting of the people who work for Buschur Racing, the Nisei would have the lead in the voting --- that doesn't mean a thing.

I will bet you that SSAutoChrome/XSPower has sold alot more $200 intercoolers than AMS or Buschur or Nisei has sold at $600-$800. The reason SSAC has no votes is that most of the purchasers are non-enthusiast who are probably not on this forum, and the ones who are on here know that the Buschur/AMS/ARC/etc. name brand units are better. The voting was for "Which do you like", not necessarily which you own. I am sure the SSAC owners know the others are better, just as I did when owned an SSAC IC for a short while.

Also, with "Which do you like", the faulty testing and advertising of the Nisei unit has probably let many people to vote for it even though it probably is not the best unit out there.

What would be awesome would be if a magazine like Turbo got ahold of this thread and did a test of all the options out there, like they often do for exhaust systems.

EVOlutionary

 

Guys, the ONLY way you can have temp's LOWER than ambient with an intercooler is IF you use a air to water intercooler, which I had on my OLD rig (non-DSM). . .you can fill the tank up with ICE and ALCOHOL, which will GREATLY reduce the temp's sometimes below AMBIENT, but ONLY on an AIR-TO-WATER. . .there's no physical way, in our world, with our governing law's of Thermodynamics and Physics, that Nisei could generate a -7F temp in first gear. . .that implies something wrong with the sensor. . .so if you standarize the first gear run, and add 7F back to everything else, you might see something a little more accurate, but it's all sorts of sketch. . .

Back to David's point, fellas, if you're on a stock turbo, Nisei sounds pointless since the pressure drop means you're increasing boost to make up for it, and then really flirting with getting an inefficient system going. . .I mean really, why would one want to LOSE hp only to increase flow, and then increase boost to overcome said drop, only to increase thermal inefficiency overall again?

On a bigger turbo, it'll be a different story, I'm just speaking stock for stock. . .to me (correct me if I'm wrong David), the Race FMIC seems like overkill for stock turbos. . .

 

id Like to see a test with the Peakboost ic I know their core is the same as some popular companys Why dont Nisei send Buschur a ic for testing

 

I'll increase my contribution to match yours just to get to the bottom of this. Let DB do his own testing, post his results and we make our judgement based on facts. If it works, it works. I don't think DB is an armchair general commanding a paper army so let him do what he does best...testing products and being honest abt the results.

Off topic from this thread but if everyone thinks like you do, where's the room for the smaller or newer guys coming up with new innovations? You just make it easier for the big boys to rest on their laurels, come up with products that could be better, and allow all those fanboys riding on their past fame to crush the new guys by browbeating them. Its just hard to call the bull**** when you get a bunch of fanboys shouting 'this rocks and you suck' and throwing mud at anything and anyone not in agreement with them. Using your argument as a basis, isn't it accurate to say then that HKS RULES? They have more money than 99% of us will ever make in 100 lifetimes and more engineers working for them on R&D than all the 'engineers' in here. Does it mean that all their products are automatically better than DB's because they have more $$, more expertise and a far better track record? If so, let us just screw all the tests needed to prove DB's race intercooler is really better than Nisei and just go for the HKS intercooler since they are already 'proven by their track record'

 

I'm sure this will be cleared up eventually, but they aren't exactly hacks over at Nisei. I'm not an engineer, so I'm going to sut up at this point. But I don't think you can go wrong with either the AMS, Buschur, or Nisei intercoolers.

 

David,

I have read everything that they posted and my questions to you still stand. You have assumed that I don't know what you are talking abt and that's ok by me. However, if you read my postings carefully, you will see that my questions are perfectly valid. I have missed an important point though and that is that they did the testing on the roads in winter time! I thought the testing was done on a dyno so my mistake there

You are biting hard on this anomaly that you spotted and think it purely a result of dishonesty. Why not just give them the benefit of the doubt for now? If you talk to Kevin personally, you might agree with me that he's very much like you...a honest vendor dedicated to making good products thru' R&D. Ok, let's take it from this angle, if right from the start, Nisei's reported ambient air temp is slightly higher than the outlet temp, does it mean you will accept their results? Many of us will spot anomalies far quicker than anything so if he's out to be dishonest, why shoot himself in the foot? I can vouch that Kevin is not a dumb fool and if he wants to fudge the results, he wouldn't have done it in a way to warrant further inspection.

Back to the technical questions....we don't have winter here so I don't know how severe wind chill can be but is it possible that wind chill can 'cool' the massive Nisei FMIC enough to produce the anomalous result?

Cheers everyone and a lil less fighting in the new year pls. If you wanna fight, at least fight fair like gentlemen do

 

Question,

Did anyone run a test on a stock intercooler?

 

i did and the results can be found here:http://www.socalevo.net/index.php?op...6&topic=8464.0

for those to lazy to link:

We recently had the opportuninty to test the nisei replacement core against the stock intercooler. Here are the details:

Both intercoolers were tested for 5 dyno runs.

Car was an 03 gsr 24,500 miles. 3" tbe, high flow cat, exede, stock intake, pump, and injectors.

Fuel was 91 octane 76.

The undertray was removed before the tests were started.

The intercooler sprayer was turned off.

The fan used was a 42" 1/2hp airking drum fan.

Stock results were obtained with peak boost ranging from 1.55 to 1.57 bar. Hp is listed first Tq second. Results are given with a standard correction factor applied.

275.91hp 279.38tq
280.54hp 281.26tq
263.25hp 280.61tq
262.13hp 280.61tq
266.65hp 275.98tq

Nisei results were obtained with peak boost ranging from 1.54 to 1.58 bar. Hp is listed first and Tq second. Results are given with a standard correction factor applied.

288.55hp 283.72tq
283.45hp 270.92tq
283.47hp 283.09tq
277.62hp 283.66tq
282.35hp 279.83tq

The average numbers are: Stock hp 269.89 Nisei hp 283.09 Stock tq 279.57 Nisei tq 280.24

We were surprised to see such good gains from simply replacing the core. We did our best to make the tests fair and we were pretty tough on the cores to do our best to simulate a real world beating. Once the testing was completed i did some final tuning on the nisei core and ended up at 285hp and 280tq. This was with the boost turned down to 1.45 peak and some more timing removed for safety.

Feel free to pm me if you have any questions. If i did my math wrong let me know.

Moral of the story the Nisei outperformed the stocker by 13 hp average and would have done better on the torque side if it wasn't for run number two. I'm not sure what happened, maybe the ecu got pissed. The Nisei fit well and looks pretty tough from the front. The Nisei also did not cover any more of the radiator than the stock core.

I don't want to overstep my bounds because we are not a paid vendor. My main goal is to give out some good info for the community. pm me for any other questions.

i would be happy to perform this same test for the buschur unit if dave would like to send us one. robert fuller can come to the shop to ensure the tests are performed fairly.

 

I own the Buschur Deluxe. No problems easily generating 450 mustang WHP. I even ran over a curb with it and bent in the core. Still rock solid!

 

David Buschur and Nisei


I am a customer that also wish to make the same Dyno test. Listen to this one, I am very interested on buying your FMIC(Deluxe), I am willing to pay you in full for the entire FMIC plus shipping, then I will install it on my own car then take it to the Dyno at vividracing and hope to make some decent HP gains.

If I am not 100% satisfy would you take the FMIC back and refund me my money?, I will pay for the shipping. If I am satisfied I would let it in my car and I would be answer to all this forum that indeed your FMIC works well and is worth the money.

Nisei, this also goes for you, same offer, here you have a customer(me) that wants the best and is tired of speculating and waiting, I will pay full price plus shipping then have it installed and Dyno tested.

I have plenty of vacation time and suficient money to cover the deal. I can have one or both Intercoolers installed then we can fairly post the dynos. Let me know so that we you can send the Intercoolers to Vividracing for the Dyno. whomever makes more power I get to keep.

Once all this testing is done then we can talk about giving me a good deal on whatever product I choose.

Done deal?

Thanks!!

 

haha which evo are you going to use?

 

I posted this already but it dissapeared. Has anyone discussed the potential for coupler failure on the buschur kits. There is a hose coupler that connects the turbo outlet pipe to the intercooler inlet on the buschur kits. The motor moves under acceleration while the intercooler is fixed. This causes the coupler to tear itself in half over time. I have seen this personally and it may have happened on dave's personal rs. "Well as luck would have it the time I did take the RS to the track on race gas the performance wasn't there and the next day I found a blown out intercooler coupling on the car. I fixed the coupling and another leak and was ready to go."

Before anyone thinks i'm trying to bash dave, i have gone out of my way to help him. In case you don't remember me dave i'm the guy who stayed until 3 am so you could dyno tune robert fullers car even though my six week old son was having eye surgery the next day.

 

Wow, it appears that being on vacation was not a good thing. First, I want to thank all of you who called today to inform me of this thread. My employees forwarded your messages to me.

As I am the official representative for Nisei Engineering on EvolutionM.net I will do my best to educate and respond to the Evo community.

As for the accusations made by David about lying, cheating, use of nitrous or any other cooling medium other than ambient air, I will state these tests have NOT been manipulated, favored, changed, altered, in away way other than the conversion factors from Kpa to PSI, and Celsius to Fahrenheit.

As Nisei Engineering's master wholesale distributor I made a few calls about the above quotes and there has been no official order for the Nisei FMIC. If you like you can PM me and I'll be more than willing to take your order, but as of right now there's no record that you've made an order with us or any other distributor.

For those of you who think "What a freaking joke" and "HOW IN THE HELL CAN A INTERCOOLER (air to air)"... produce temperatures below ambient air conditions?

While the testing was being conducted we learned very quickly that placing the air temp sensor used to record the "ambient temps" at the front of the car (just behind the mesh grill) would be affected by the "Wind Chill Factor" and would affect the temperature recorded. The logged "Wind Chill Factor" would produce temperatures well below the actual ambient temperature. Nisei Engineering decided it would be easier for the "new members" ( EVO owners whom have had no prior experience in Aftermarket Performance) to decipher & comprehend the information if the ambient remained static.

We then relocated the "ambient temp" sensor to the passenger side behind the panel where the bumper support beam mounts. This enabled us to stabilized the temperature that was recorded for ambient.

I did a quick Google.com search to help explain the basic concept of "Wind Chill Factor" in hopes it will give you a better understanding. Below is a link (one of many sites found on Google.com about "Wind Chill Factor") with a brief explanation and an online "Wind Chill Factor Calculator" so you can plug your own numbers and check the results.

http://www.springfrog.com/weather/wind-chill.htm



Again, I will say the data has NOT been altered in anyway shape or form to favor Nisei Engineering's FMIC. I would also like to say size is NOT the ONLY factor to determine the efficientcy of a FMIC. Design does play a MAJOR roll in the effectiveness of a FMIC.

Quick FYI, Nisei Engineering is well aware of the different models (variations) of the Deluxe I/C's. The one tested on the site is one of the Original models. Nisei Engineering is actually in the process of procuring the other model to test against. The newer model is COMPLETELY different in configuration/design. I'm sure the Evo community will be shocked of the results when made public.



Nisei Engineering is aware of the pressure drop and is not attempting to mis-lead the public or cover up any of the facts. The PDF files below each of the graphs in question were openly provided for viewing. This way, the entire run would be available and not just the section where the Nisei FMIC out performed the Deluxe. The files clearly shows the pressure drop indicated on both FMIC's.

Regarding the pressure drop on the Nisei FMIC. Yes, there is a registered pressure drop - which can be partly attributed to the extreme inlet temps vs LOW outlet temps. This drastic exchange creates a pressure drop.

As everyone knows, the colder the air becomes the less space it will occupy (it becomes more dense). Basically, an air molecule of 300+degree F is much larger and will occupy more space than a 75 degree F air molecule. As the molecule moves across the cooling tube and heat is exchanged out of it, it gets smaller in size and more space is created inside that section of the cooling tube due to the molecules occupying less space.

Given that the Nisei FMIC end-tanks are similar in size from "Inlet" to "Outlet" and the "Heat Exchange" performs significantly better than the competition, it will be more prone to register a pressure drop. Not to mention that the Nisei is much larger than the Deluxe.



Typically the car running more boost will produce larger gains. If the boost during a back-to- back dyno test were to be set at the same level then I will disagree with David's statement about Nisei's power gains in relation to the heat. As can be confirmed on the graph, the Nisei FMIC can exchange heat more rapidly than the competition. Also, it can maintain more consistent outlet temps.

Regarding the statement about Davids cores having "almost NO pressure drop" I will give David opportunity to revise his statement regarding the Deluxe I/C. David, you and I both know the original core is COMPLETELY different in design / fin configuration / tube count, tube size. The fin configuration is much more aggressive in the more recent model. The newer core will register a pressure drop greater than the Nisei model tested.


Please review the above section regarding "Wind Chill Factor".

I will state it again so there is NO confusion about this. Nisei did NOT use or require any additional assistance to exchange more heat out of the charged air when testing was conducted.

I am confident end users of both product lines will produce similar results if measured on their own.

In closing I will say, as long as I've been a member of the community I've not seen such detailed information posted by any other manufacturer outside of Nisei Engineering. Not to mention consumers who have taken their personal time out to post about a product.

I've conducted many in-depth searches for information on the BR FMIC's and not found anything outside of claims of authentic gains.

I think most manufacturers would admit the aftermarket FMIC's on the market are "oversized/overbuilt" for the stock turbocharger. Also, that a 1 GEAR dyno pull will not cause the cores to "HEAT SOAK".

The purpose of the Nisei graphs, was to bring awareness that FMIC's can "HEAT SOAK". As can be viewed on the graphs, the original Deluxe I/C begins to "HEAT SOAK" after 1st GEAR. The Nisei doesn't begin to climb in temps until 4th GEAR. The testing parameters were 1st through 5th WOT. One run at a time, imagine if you were WOT on the track for a 15 min session... how much more would it "HEAT SOAK" then?

I will leave the community with these links provided by your fellow members!

https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/showthread.php?t=139330&highlight=nisei



https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/showthread.php?t=127135&highlight=nisei



https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1977423&postcount=50



http://www.socalevo.net/index.php?op...6&topic=8464.0



http://archive.socalevo.net/forums/modules.php?set_albumName=gt40&id=avo_fmic_start_o f_run&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=v iew_photo.php



http://archive.socalevo.net/forums/modules.php?set_albumName=gt40&id=avo_fmic_end_of_ run&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=vie w_photo.php



http://archive.socalevo.net/forums/modules.php?set_albumName=gt40&id=avo_fmic_end_of_ run&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=vie w_photo.php



http://archive.socalevo.net/forums/modules.php?set_albumName=gt40&id=Neisei_fmic_end_ of_run&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include= view_photo.php


http://www.socalevo.net/index.php?op...898#msg6605898


http://www.socalevo.net/index.php?op...&topic=7899.30



https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2007294&postcount=21



http://www.niseiengineering.com/images/IntercoolerTutorial.swf



http://www.niseiengineering.com/images/CoreComparison.swf


Ok, now I'm officially on vacation! Hope all of you have a good and safe New Years.

Happy Holidays

 

A lot to repsond to.

Mike W.

First, our Deluxe FMIC kits are completely different than Mike W pointed out. There is no longer an issues with the lower i/c plumbing. In the beginning we built the lower i/c pipe directly into the intercooler. It was joined by a coupling that went to the other outlet pipe for the turbo that is also included in the kit. With the horrible engine mounts that are in the EVO the constant moving of the engine has a tendency to tear this coupling over time. In the last month or so I have re-designed the outlet pipe so it is very easy to install and the lower i/c pipe that use to be one piece to the intercooler is now a two piece design. This allows more flex in the lower i/c pipe so coupling tear will no longer be an issue. It also makes installing the intercooler much easier.

Shivaswrath,

I do not feel that the race FMIC is too large for the stock turbo. Not at all. Myself, my brother and Jarrod all run the race FMIC on our EVO's. The three of us are running either stock or our 20G's for turbos.


Beavis4g63,

Nice test you performed. Not un-typical though. Our standard or Deluxe FMIC which are much smaller than the nisei intercooler will gain on average 15 whp just by bolting on the car. If you wanted to I did some testing on a customers equipped GT30 EVO a few months back. The car wasn't making the power I thought it should. I first thought the exhaust was the culprit. I called the customer, got the O.K. to test ours. Instead I just dropped his off the car and ran open exhaust, no change in power. I was puzzled. He had another companies upgraded FMIC already on the car. I called him back, said his exhaust was fine, asked if I could put our intercooler on the car. Got approval. Put our Deluxed FMIC kit on the car and instantly gained 15 whp. Problem solved.

Nisei rep.

I stand by my observations as do many other vendors that have already commented.

You say size alone does not determine how good an intercooler is. I agree 100% as is proof by our smaller intercooler (Funny to me how you build one of the largest intercooler out there but test it against other companies smaller units and then say size doesn't matter) having less pressure drop than your much larger unit.

You are trying to explain to everyone that your intercooler has a larger pressure drop than our because it is larger and cools the air better. Dude, come on. From the first minute I saw pictures and claims on your website my guess was the pressure drop was going to be severe just from the core design. I was correct. The pressure drop you are describing isn't from making the air cooler. Holy crap man! The incoming are temps are -7 from ambient while the outlet temps were 25+ degrees hotter. I hate to rimind you but that is an increase of 32 degrees, so your freaking theory is NOT correct. The air temps are rising across your core, not dropping. The pressure drop is from a poor intercooler core being too restrictive.

You also say that you agree typically a car making more boost will make more power but if you test them both at the same boost level then yours will make more power. You are really amazing me here. I think some real world racing, tuning would do you some good.
First off, if the car makes 2 more PSI of boost with one intercooler than the other than this is 2 psi less back pressure in the turbine housing, alteast 2 psi less. This back pressure causes high cylinder pressure, less evacuation of the cylinders on the exhaust stroke and make the car much more prone to detonation. So if in fact I had our intercooler on a car and tuned as agressively as I could in a typical EVO and then we install your intercooler and lost the 2 psi of boost it would NOT be possible to turn the boost up more, the car would hit the knock sensor and kill the power. The additional cooling, which is minimal if you did the testing fairly, would not make enough difference to get the power back.

You came up with (I can't go look now as I am on dial up and it takes to long) with our tempts starting at ambient and then showing that they climb to 30+ degrees at the end and I'll say once again, with NO pressure drop.

You then show you intercooler starting out at -7 degrees and climbing to 20+ degrees. Well if you would have started your testing fairly with the same ambient air then it wouldn't be to hard for anyone to see that the -7 degrees you started with added to your 20+ degree climb at the end brings our two intercoolers VERY close to one another in temps AND you could have then pointed out that our intercooler is obviously better as we had NO pressure drop while your core lost about 2 psi from what I can see on YOUR own chart.

I feel that through your post and mumbo jumbo you have further shown that you are trying to pull the wool over everyones eyes.

You commented on your tempurature probe and explained that is how you ended up -7 degrees from ambient. Your excuse is not correct. I will help you with it for next time though as I spent the last 24 hours thinking about this.

I have had the same tempurature drop happen to me on the road. I thought of this last night and now I take back what I said. It is possible to see the temps lower BUT only if you baseline temps were HOTTER than ambient to begin with. I have sat on the side of the road tuning and started my next pull on the road. From sitting there I have seen the temps rise from engine, radiator, a/c condensor heat. When I would do the pull I would notice the same thing, air temps dropping drastically through the first few gears. The cause of this was the new cool ambient air temps being sucked into the turbo through the air filter were MUCH colder than the intercooler had become while being heat soaked sitting still.

The testing was FLAT out not done fairly. We did not order an intercooler on Friday. I was waiting to see where this was going. IF I do decide to order an intercooler I will be sure to have witnesses at our shop for this one. We will place to air temp sensors and two pressure sensor INTO THE INTERCOOLERS themselves. I would also conduct a proper test of both intercoolers on the same day in the same conditions and not all of a sudden find out that wind chill pays a roll in doing a test. It isn't to hard to figure out that if the air temp outside is 65 degrees the way to make the test right is to also get the intercooler to 65 degrees too. Then do the pull, measure inlet and outlet temps from the SAME ambient air starting point AND measure (ALSO POINT IT OUT WHEN YOU PRODUCT IS INFERIOR IN AN AREA) the pressure drop.

For those of you accusing me of being a trouble maker, you are wrong. I am simply pointing out flaws in things. If you want to walk around the world with your eyes close by all means do that. Hell call us up, tell us you want to be lied to and you want us to take your money for something that isn't as good as it could be. As long as you tell us this first we will sell you something you don't need and take your money.

For those of you accusing me, why is it that you can't simply look at the test results yourself and see these simple things? I didn't do the testing, they did. Then they put the information right there to see. I just don't get it.

David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com

 

Rastmp,

While I agree that David's conclusion of 'foul play' here may have been premature, one must accept the fact that no single individual (as far as I can see) has dedicated more time to product development and testing where the EVO is concerned. As a result, he's earned the position whereby his products and methodology serve as a market standard, backed by ample proven, repeatable results. Obviously even the Nisei guys give due credit, because they've (rightfully) concluded his IC to be the best pre-existing design, which is why they selected it as a basis for their own performance target.

Speaking personally, I find that David's 'if it works better, I'll sell it' position and his willingness to dedicate lots of time to resolving answers to common questions to be admirable. Naturally his efforts benefit his own business both directly and indirectly, but freely posted research doesn't come free of costs. Also, his willingness to accept intelligent suggestions pursuant to more accurate, objective testing is invaluable. His good use of the 'KISS' (Keep It Simple, Stupid) principle, and his 'find out what works first and find out why later' approach are very much in tune with the impulses of the market . . . and impulsive it IS.

My opinions disagree with David's on occasion, and you're free to do the same if and anytime you see fit. However, if ANY of us degrades an otherwise good debate with finger pointing and accusations of misrepresentation without justifiable cause, we're not going to get anything done.

Finally, if you feel like taking up pugel sticks with David, be advised that match goes through Timzcat, with Shaun@SG (a.k.a. 'Mr. Negative') serving as referee, and . . .