You have the most appropriate perspective IMHO

Regretably, however it seems that many members of the Evo community do not adopt such a strategy when it comes to a tuning strategy

Most noteably, as a perfect example of this mind set is member Slow Car who has contributed to this thread who has previously asserted that in his opinion he wants a tune which realizes 99% of the power potential available with a given set of mods.

Also, I have found that many customers may have "unreasonable" expectations of what to expect

There is a degree of or range of what is acceptable in a tune as far as boost levels, a/f range, ignition timing and the like

When dealing with the stock ecu those limits which a tuner usually can work with are further limited by what the ecu will accept as far as engine noise before it "reacts" and pulls timing

IMHO it is idiotic to tune a street car to the limit of what it can make on a dyno if you intend to use that car on pump gas (which varies in quality) which is street driven and even more so if that vehicle is one which you epxect to last 100,000 miles and need to use every day for transportation

When I do my tuning sessions I am always open to suggestion from the customer as to what level of risk they are willing to tolerate and how agreesive they want to make thier tune

However, the stock ecu itself is often the limiting factor in what you can get away with cleanly without percieved knock

Pushing the ecu into the point where it is seeing knock counts and pulling timing is a amature tactic and not something I try to do

From the shape of the curve and the way this particular car is making power, I was very pleased with the outcome and I am confident that it will hold together for a long time at the boost level I tuned it for

Some of the comments made by other members in this thread show me that many members have no clue as to what the objective of tuning is and no conception of what is and what is not a good tune

For lack of a better anaology - its kind of like gauging a woman as a lover based upon the size of her breast implants

 

For lack of a better anaology - its kind of like gauging a woman as a lover based upon the size of her breast implants
!!!lol damm i need to stop doing this

 

i would be happy with those numbers on pump gas. Curve looks nice too.

Is Al finally getting the hang of the ole tuning game?



For bigger turbos, would it be beneficial to raise boost and run lower timing for few extra ponies up top?

That has been my theory for larger turbos that can easily push more psi without causing higher egt's.

 

Can't agree better! I give anyone that tunes successfully credit. I used to do it on the side and got fed up rather quick of dealing with customers hackjobs, unrealistic expectations, etc, etc...Damn honda owners

Untill recently my only experience with big turbo evo's has been with a standalone ECU. A customer just had his GT35r evo tuned by Al recently and im VERY impressed with the tune and how the car runs (just put down over 500whp, and not on a dynojet )

 

Sadly, the most important thing the majority of customers are interested in is how much power their car makes on a dyno

I find this amusing as no one actualy uses a car exclusively on a dyno - except a few hard core dyno queens

Cars are driven on roads which go up and down, and in different gears and throtle positions. To me the peak power of a car is almost besides the point. Sure peak power tells you if the mods are working properly and helps identify any mechanical issues which may be present but it is really not a huge part of what a good tune does.

The area under the curve is what makes a smooth and flexable car which will be fast under a wide range of operating conditions. Most important are the transitions from partial TPS to WOT and ensuring a well sorted "feel" of the car. I strive for a certain "feel" in the cars that I tune which comes from working with the stock ecu and knowing its limitations and what will work well on the stock ecu and what will work against it.

To me the best arrtibutes of a good tuner is experience to know what a car should be doing and how it should be running and discretion and judgement to work in a safe and reliable fashion.

Any buffon can jack up the timing and run 12 /1 a/f ratios on a dyno and make a huge power number - this is not a process that takes skill or intelect.

What makes for a good job is the experience and unmeasurable aspects of the tune which will result in an enjoyable car to drive.

 

Thanks



If that customer is whom I am thinking it was, his case is a great example of what I am talking about

( If you guys did his turbo kit it was very well done indeed BTW )

The customer said this is the third time you are tuning me - I am nearly ready to get a upgraded short block so this time I want you to get "more agressive"

After questioning the customer if he really understood the risks involved and getting his assurances that he was prepared to push things I agreed to give him a more agressive style of tune

The main thrust is that his car was still runing stong after my first two tunes and running as a reliable daily driver without incident.

With a GT35 on board he is ready to go to the next level of performance and push things a bit more agressively.

He had alcohol injection on the car and thus he is ready to explore a high boosting tune. Also he had a great turbo kit and everything is intalled and working 100% mechanically and thus he gets a great result and huge power.

A great example.

 

you're going to keep rubbing it in and bring this thing up huh?

I asked for a baseline and your simple answer could have been straight forward - the previous tune sucks and was knocking bad......

 

Abner - you know I really like you as a person and respect your passion for evos

I just want to use you as an example of what can happen if customers start to try and squeeze out that last 15 whp a good tuner leaves on the table

**** can and will break

Descretion is a good quality when tuning cars that are daily drivers

 

your constant reminder is going to give me bad nitemares

trust me, i have learnt my lesson on the 87octane and tune after tune after tune ****

 

Good reads!

 

Agreed, it is better to tune with a factor of safety than to tune on the ragged edge. That is even more true when it is someone else's car. My old twinturbo 240z was running strong for 5 years before I sold it and it ran fairly consistent 10's at the end of my possession. That was 2 years back and it is still going. I always tuned AFR's in the 11.6-11.8 range and backed out 2 degrees timing over what was possible. You would be shocked at some reputable shops that supposedly know there stuff and see the JUNK tunes that come out. I have tuned cars for 10 years starting with the old Electromotive Tech II, but really nothing much has changed. It takes about 1 minute in looking through maps to see if someone has really put the time to do it right.

 

I learn lessons also

Two years ago when I was at the DSM shootout, I tried to do a burn out in my daily driver and tow vehicle 1999 Chevy Stillen Modded Suburban at the econo lodge

Little did I know that it was a limited slip rear and no chance to break both tires loose with a load of tools in the back

Thanks to the assembled masses there and my rear right tire was covered with beer and I proceeded to do a long tire roasting burn out through the parking lot

The next day I started to hear sound strange sounds on decel from the rear axel

Fast forward two years later and when I was driving out of the airport yesterday in single digit air temps my rear end exploded and I was forced to limp home in front wheel drive mode

As a result, I was forced to drive home and work all night to wrench on and tune my STI Subaru so I could have something to drive today

If my truck was my only car I would be without any wheels now and forced to take a bus or rent a car

My point is that yes I was stupid to do burn outs in a parking lot - and now there is a price to pay

I either have to get a used rear axel in a junk yard for about 7 - 800 and kill myself in this freezing weather to R & R it - or buy a whole bunch of parts for the innards of my busted diff and install it all in there at a cost of approx $900

The moral to all of this is to hopefully put a tiny voice in some of you guy's head that when your motor throws a rod through the side of the block and takes out your head in the process you are in for a very severe hit to your pocket book and a lengthy evo less adventure as your car is reapired.

There is no guarantee that any modified car will sustain increased power levels in a reliable fashion. Even stock un modified engines can and do break. However, my being careful and conservative with your boost level and tuning set up you can greatly reduce the incidence of engine failures and make your car a lot less likely to become a statistic.

Everyone who considers a agressive tune or insisits on reaching maximum power on a dyno should ask themselves in advance - "What will I do if my engine blows up?" if your answer is - "No problem, I was planning to send in my block to Buschur for a built motor soon anyway." Then you are the guy who may think to press matters.

If your answer is I have no money after buying my Evo and would have to torch my car and do an insurance job if the engine blew up - then I would suggest you err on the side of caution in how much power you persue.

Sadly, in this industry there are many car modifiers who have unreasonable expectations and a very limited budget. I have discovered that IF the expectations of the customer are unrealistic and not reasonable it will be hard to satisfy them within the bounds of what is possible.

The post of 9 sec 9 above was one that really hit a nerve with me. Here is a guy trust me would could afford to blow up his evo every day and rebuild it again if he wanted to and has the resources to do what ever he wants - yet when it was time to tune his car he asked to have the boost lowered and a conservative tune. That is an example that many of the readers here should emulate.

Here at my home shop - www.theshopct.com we have a young customer who likes to beat the crap out of his Evo IX and he is 18 year old youth.

This is his reair history in the past year of 30,000 miles

4 clutches - two stock a stage 3 and one stage 4

Two transmissions including a shep trans

One front active transfer case

At this juncture the guy is without a car as apparently his funding ran out

Sadly, this is an all too common occurance

More people should think like 9 sec 9

Just my two cents

 

Psychologically damaging. Dont care what dyno its on. (LOL)