Idle issues after Walbro install / airbox mod
#31
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an increase is static fuel pressure at idle can and will effect fueling at idle and everywhere else. in closed loop feedback, like at idle and light engine loads/light throttle the ECU will trim fuel for the desired 14.7:1 AFR using it's fuel trims(short term and long term trims), what are your short term fuel trims?
it is possible but highly unlikely(unless fuel tables at idle and part throttle areas are way off and the increase in static fuel pressure would make it worse) that the ECU is pulling its max fuel trims in closed loop. This would mean that the ECU could not pull any more fuel and thus you could be running richer than 14.7:1 which can cause bogging. Depending on how rich it is running, this could cause a idle issue, but not unless it's running well below 10.5:1 AFR at idle, as this is just about as much fuel as the engine can handle at idle before it starts to bog down and choke out at idle.
This is why i have a problem with mail in reflashes......as they sometimes don't come close. Especialy after a drop in walbro that increases static fuel pressure. The proper way to tune these areas is to force the ECU into open loop and tune the tables perfectly for 14.7:1 in idle and part throttle then put the ECU back to normal closed loop feedback mode, that way when the ECU is in closed loop and does not need to add or subtract much fuel to keep a steady 14.7:1 AFR in these areas, thus keeping fuel trims as close to 0 as possible.
Without really digging into your datalogs, i am just speculating, but what i said about everything can and will happen, as i have seen it. It may or may not be the actually the case for you.
And about your intake mod, i don't think this is your problem. The talk about air coming in one side and going out the other is non-sense. There is a constant vacume and any air coming into the vacume area above the filter will be sucked in. Now, the adjacent holes could be ruining fluid motion by causing a lot of swirling at high engine loads, which could effect the fluid motion of the air entering the intake/filter. If there is an actual increase over stock, you can believe your MAF scaling is off. i noticed a drop in maf scaling after just a simple drop in filter......
CJ
it is possible but highly unlikely(unless fuel tables at idle and part throttle areas are way off and the increase in static fuel pressure would make it worse) that the ECU is pulling its max fuel trims in closed loop. This would mean that the ECU could not pull any more fuel and thus you could be running richer than 14.7:1 which can cause bogging. Depending on how rich it is running, this could cause a idle issue, but not unless it's running well below 10.5:1 AFR at idle, as this is just about as much fuel as the engine can handle at idle before it starts to bog down and choke out at idle.
This is why i have a problem with mail in reflashes......as they sometimes don't come close. Especialy after a drop in walbro that increases static fuel pressure. The proper way to tune these areas is to force the ECU into open loop and tune the tables perfectly for 14.7:1 in idle and part throttle then put the ECU back to normal closed loop feedback mode, that way when the ECU is in closed loop and does not need to add or subtract much fuel to keep a steady 14.7:1 AFR in these areas, thus keeping fuel trims as close to 0 as possible.
Without really digging into your datalogs, i am just speculating, but what i said about everything can and will happen, as i have seen it. It may or may not be the actually the case for you.
And about your intake mod, i don't think this is your problem. The talk about air coming in one side and going out the other is non-sense. There is a constant vacume and any air coming into the vacume area above the filter will be sucked in. Now, the adjacent holes could be ruining fluid motion by causing a lot of swirling at high engine loads, which could effect the fluid motion of the air entering the intake/filter. If there is an actual increase over stock, you can believe your MAF scaling is off. i noticed a drop in maf scaling after just a simple drop in filter......
CJ
iTune
If you can look a my log to see if I have a fuel trim problem, it would be greatly appreciated. I also think that this might help ShamelessCookie, because disconnecting the battery was not a permanent solution for me.
Attached is a log that I made going home from work the other day (busy highway traffic). There are a few areas with idle. I also passed a vette in 4th gear, even though he didnt want me to, and hit 11 counts of knock, but that problem is a seperate issue.
my-red-rs
Last edited by my-red-rs; Oct 24, 2008 at 06:14 AM.
#32
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iTune
If you can look a my log to see if I have a fuel trim problem, it would be greatly appreciated. I also think that this might help ShamelessCookie, because disconnecting the battery was not a permanent solution for me.
Attached is a log that I made going home from work the other day (busy highway traffic). There are a few areas with idle. I also passed a vette in 4th gear, even though he didnt want me to, and hit 11 counts of knock, but that problem is a seperate issue.
my-red-rs
If you can look a my log to see if I have a fuel trim problem, it would be greatly appreciated. I also think that this might help ShamelessCookie, because disconnecting the battery was not a permanent solution for me.
Attached is a log that I made going home from work the other day (busy highway traffic). There are a few areas with idle. I also passed a vette in 4th gear, even though he didnt want me to, and hit 11 counts of knock, but that problem is a seperate issue.
my-red-rs
my suggestion to you; force the ECU into open loop. You can do this several ways, one is to go into ECUflash and look up (min temp for closed loop) and jack the temp way up to a temp the ECU will never see....this will force open loop. or you can go into open loop load #1 and 2 and move all those values to 0%.....this will force the ECU into open loop as well. If you use the last method, copy your settings down somewhere or keep them in another calibration so you can revert back to the way you had it after your done.
Now, after the ECU is stuck in open loop....watch what happens to your AFRs..... i promise you they will be all over the place at idle, and all other part throttle areas. Tune away!!! get everything from 0-100% load and from 500-5500rpm steady at 14.7:1 AFR then taper the AFR down from there(which should alreasdy be tuned!!!) if you need help let me know!
OK, so once you have tuned all the idle and part throttle areas, it's now time to force the ECU back into closed loop feedback mode. Just reverese whatever methode you chose to use to force open loop. Watch your fuel trims go to 0 and stay very close.
Make sure you have properly setup all your correction factors in the ECU i.e. temp...barometric pressure.....accell enrichment...ect. These correction factors are very very important!
CJ
#33
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An aftermarket intake has a known intake path. this one looks like you can suck air in the snorkel, and have the air blow BACK OUT the newly fabricated "side hole". I say you put the normal airbox cover on, or just go cone intake. Don't fab the boxtop. That is the problem here, I am pretty confident. surely would have different characteristics at idle, and WOT on the road. Follow the path of the air getting sucked in............it won't hit the side of the intakebox, then down thru the filter, because the incoming air is blowing right back out of the"modified hole! Only SOME, not ALL, of the injested air is getting in the motor this way.
Last edited by DanInPA; Mar 27, 2007 at 08:46 AM.
#34
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I don't know about your idle issue, but here is another brilliant attempt to "re-engineer" the stock airbox with poor results.
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=208692
This guy had the same idea to go cutting holes in the airbox for better performance. However, he wasn't as smart as you. He cut 20 little holes in the top instead of one big one in the side.
Geez, what was he thinking?!?! Everyone knows the best way is to cut a big hole for better performance!
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=208692
This guy had the same idea to go cutting holes in the airbox for better performance. However, he wasn't as smart as you. He cut 20 little holes in the top instead of one big one in the side.
Geez, what was he thinking?!?! Everyone knows the best way is to cut a big hole for better performance!
#36
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why do you think that its bad for performance - cause it reduces pressure drop or sucks hotter air like a cone filter you can buy for 300$?
I don't know about your idle issue, but here is another brilliant attempt to "re-engineer" the stock airbox with poor results.
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=208692
This guy had the same idea to go cutting holes in the airbox for better performance. However, he wasn't as smart as you. He cut 20 little holes in the top instead of one big one in the side.
Geez, what was he thinking?!?! Everyone knows the best way is to cut a big hole for better performance!
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=208692
This guy had the same idea to go cutting holes in the airbox for better performance. However, he wasn't as smart as you. He cut 20 little holes in the top instead of one big one in the side.
Geez, what was he thinking?!?! Everyone knows the best way is to cut a big hole for better performance!
#38
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ALl you guys that are screaming about get an intake CRACK ME UP! This thread wasnt about his intake.
Your sucking complete hot air 360* around your cone filter. You really cant be serious on this whole "your sucking hot air theory" can you? Wow...just wow.
Look earlier in the thread. The guys that are dis-assembling your ECU to help make programs like ecuflash and mitsulogger are running this airbox mod. They have tested it thoroughly. Its not a bad do-it-yourself mod. Check it out.
I think its more envy since you paid 300 bucks to RAISE your intake air temps with a cone filter, while we are keeping ours lower for FREE with the same performance increase. Actually that makes for more performance, since we all know cool air = hp.
Your sucking complete hot air 360* around your cone filter. You really cant be serious on this whole "your sucking hot air theory" can you? Wow...just wow.
Look earlier in the thread. The guys that are dis-assembling your ECU to help make programs like ecuflash and mitsulogger are running this airbox mod. They have tested it thoroughly. Its not a bad do-it-yourself mod. Check it out.
I think its more envy since you paid 300 bucks to RAISE your intake air temps with a cone filter, while we are keeping ours lower for FREE with the same performance increase. Actually that makes for more performance, since we all know cool air = hp.
#39
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I dont care how the car looks under the hood. I will actually cover my full race manifold with a heat shield to protect it from rain, etc. My goal is to make the car as fast/fun as possible without increasing the noise too much, so I might try this for a while. If I dont like it, all I do is put another top on for $30 - no tune required
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