USA Pump Gas Dyno and Track #'s
Caring about the EVO is completely different from looking to see what someone in the UK or anywhere else is doing. To be honest, until I signed up on MLR I didn't even know what UK was. There also isn't much reason for any of us here to look there as the actual drag times (which is what the US guys concentrate on the most) are not very good. Yes, there are some fast cars but it is not really common. They also speak of their gasoline as 98 octane all the time, 98 when reading it is not the same as 91-94, so it makes it again a reason to pay no attention. I've seen lots of guys tune at 30 psi on 100 octane here in the states for along time, so for me to see 100 here and 98 referred to on the UK forums makes me think they are much closer than 93 octane.
I still question the quality of the fuel there and don't forget the dyno numbers from the UK range from engine dyno's to ratings we don't even refer to here. There is a section on our forums dedicated to different HP terms actually for comparison to some of the UK and Japanese stuff.
BTW, thanks for the complements Al, I appreciate it.
I still question the quality of the fuel there and don't forget the dyno numbers from the UK range from engine dyno's to ratings we don't even refer to here. There is a section on our forums dedicated to different HP terms actually for comparison to some of the UK and Japanese stuff.
BTW, thanks for the complements Al, I appreciate it.
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From: Columbus, OH
I have nothing to add other than I have personally seen trents evo rape a sprayed ls2 402 c5z from a roll. although I suspect he was on race that weekend.
...oh and al has got to be the most annoying mother****er on the face of the earth. bro.
...oh and al has got to be the most annoying mother****er on the face of the earth. bro.
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I've seen lots of guys tune at 30 psi on 100 octane here in the states for along time, so for me to see 100 here and 98 referred to on the UK forums makes me think they are much closer than 93 octane.
I still question the quality of the fuel there and don't forget the dyno numbers from the UK range from engine dyno's to ratings we don't even refer to here. There is a section on our forums dedicated to different HP terms actually for comparison to some of the UK and Japanese stuff.
I still question the quality of the fuel there and don't forget the dyno numbers from the UK range from engine dyno's to ratings we don't even refer to here. There is a section on our forums dedicated to different HP terms actually for comparison to some of the UK and Japanese stuff.
So in my opinion comparisons can be made, and evidence can be put forward that in the particular instance of proper power and boost on pump, Buschur unfortunately cannot claim a "FIRST". Many other things yes, not this one.
I see what you're saying... basically you don't give a **** what other people are doing and that is respectable for sure. But being the first in your own mind because you don't get out much does not make you the first.
Last edited by crcain; Mar 13, 2008 at 11:56 AM.
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I still want to understand what Martin was saying.
Is he saying if he tunes a fully built AMS 37R car to 600 atw... is it / will it be det'ing right there on the dyno? Or will it run clean on the dyno, but he is concerned about what margins are there to compensate for bad fuel or long sustained WOT like a top speed run.
Need clarification.
Is he saying if he tunes a fully built AMS 37R car to 600 atw... is it / will it be det'ing right there on the dyno? Or will it run clean on the dyno, but he is concerned about what margins are there to compensate for bad fuel or long sustained WOT like a top speed run.
Need clarification.
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From: OKC
crcain are there any forums in the UK. I know you are here to learn more about the Evo's but come on. Alot of us are here to learn, including myself. But, you do not have to question every single statement that someone posts. I may be the only one that sees this but I highly doubt it. Sometimes or 99% of the time you question the intelligence of people who have been in the industry for years (to the point of doubting them). Not to say that they are correct all the time because I assure you they are not.
Maybe its the rate at which the US tuners are progressing that interests you.....hmmm..I didnt really think of it that way.
Maybe its the rate at which the US tuners are progressing that interests you.....hmmm..I didnt really think of it that way.
crcrain, nowhere have you seen me make the claim to be the first to make big power on pump gas. If you can find a quote from me please post it so I can go find it and edit it. I think other people may be doing it for me but I don't think I've said that.
I really think the way you speak to myself and others makes you extremely annoying though, to tell you the truth. You beat a topic into the dirt most of the time and from the comments I am hearing a lot of people are growing a little tired of it.
I see OKIX is another to notice it.
For example, now you are bugging the crap out of Martin, obviously he has either read your question and finds you annoying and is ignoring you or he hasn't seen it and hasn't answered. To continue to ask the same thing over and over and over is freaking annoying.
I really think the way you speak to myself and others makes you extremely annoying though, to tell you the truth. You beat a topic into the dirt most of the time and from the comments I am hearing a lot of people are growing a little tired of it.
I see OKIX is another to notice it.
For example, now you are bugging the crap out of Martin, obviously he has either read your question and finds you annoying and is ignoring you or he hasn't seen it and hasn't answered. To continue to ask the same thing over and over and over is freaking annoying.
crcrain, nowhere have you seen me make the claim to be the first to make big power on pump gas. If you can find a quote from me please post it so I can go find it and edit it. I think other people may be doing it for me but I don't think I've said that.
I really think the way you speak to myself and others makes you extremely annoying though, to tell you the truth. You beat a topic into the dirt most of the time and from the comments I am hearing a lot of people are growing a little tired of it.
I see OKIX is another to notice it.
For example, now you are bugging the crap out of Martin, obviously he has either read your question and finds you annoying and is ignoring you or he hasn't seen it and hasn't answered. To continue to ask the same thing over and over and over is freaking annoying.
I really think the way you speak to myself and others makes you extremely annoying though, to tell you the truth. You beat a topic into the dirt most of the time and from the comments I am hearing a lot of people are growing a little tired of it.
I see OKIX is another to notice it.
For example, now you are bugging the crap out of Martin, obviously he has either read your question and finds you annoying and is ignoring you or he hasn't seen it and hasn't answered. To continue to ask the same thing over and over and over is freaking annoying.
He does that on every topic he starts. Even his first post i beleave the one about the triple carbon clutch the cracked and broke the trans on some evo 5 or 6 somthing like that. We tell him what the problem was and why it happend and he still questions many peoples jugement or knowledge on certin subjects.
Plus all the c*** ridding about what the UK boys are doing. Dont you live in the caribbean. He also forgets the guys and shops over the waters have been building evo's since evo 1 came out. We meaning us shop's and car enthusiast have started with the Evo 8 platform ever since then we have took over the performance engineering aspects of the car to a whole new level. Without the help of BR, AMS and many others we would not have half the parts or tuning tools we have available in todays market. Not taking away anything from Dave but i recall when Martin made many advances , discoveries & improvements to the AEM ECU software and programing to make a already great product to even a better product. Even though i still think they should go back to the drawing board with there sensors to improve cold starts but thats another topic.
Point being sit back and read what our vendors , tuners , builders and evo enthusiast have to say before you past jugement. Ive been glued to this topic and others for the past few days ive been sitting here and learning. Its VERY RARE that we have 3-6 tuners on one topic. And getting to see everyones point of view is priceless. This is how a avg joe like myself learns by reading what the teachers are saying.
Jmartinez you have no room to bash anybody.
You havee been "building" your car for 3 years, it's been sold, sponsored, and built like 5 times already, don't talk smack and don't take this thread even more OT please, kthankxbi.
Scorke
You havee been "building" your car for 3 years, it's been sold, sponsored, and built like 5 times already, don't talk smack and don't take this thread even more OT please, kthankxbi.
Scorke
Its not about me. Plus your selling your car to if you havnt sold it already. Im Staying on topic. So please whatever your problem is with me drop it. Its really getting old.
Please Elaborate more
Ted B, well that explains it then. The ECU has to go through too many calculations to determine what is causing the "noise". The AEM on the other hand uses simple knock voltage and completely explains why it makes it so easy for me and modified engines.
The Autronic that you used for an example. I think if you are tuning an engine management that has no knock control tuning within 2 degrees of is on the foolish side. Take the Apexi Power FC, no knock control but as I stated it has a configurable knock warning. This will flash the CEL if the knock reaches the set limit you give it. I have tuned quite a few of the Power FC's and have found it to be not only one of the best ECU's but it is also oddly, one of the cheapest. I have never tuned one and been contacted later being told the CEL was flashing. I don't get near the recommend knock limit though when I am tuning.
A funny story. A few years ago before the dwell settings on the AEM's got figured out we were complaining to AEM about the ECU's. After telling AEM a few hundred times something was wrong with their ECU we installed a Power FC in our black car. The car instantly made an additional 50 whp and all the problems we had been having finally went away. It was the week after this AEM finally took the time to figure out what was wrong with the ECU's and fixed them.
Sean, I agree with your point about the knock sensors not being fool proof. I don't know what the maximum amount of timing the factory ECU can pull or the maximum amount of fuel it can add under a knock condition either. As you know you could put -50 degrees and +50% fuel in the knock correction if you wanted to and have it all come in at the slightest amount of additional voltage the sensor put out. You can literally make the car "stop" if you set it up aggressive enough.
I do NOT do that, haven't found the need for it, the point is for those who don't know, it is at least configurable to do that.
The Autronic that you used for an example. I think if you are tuning an engine management that has no knock control tuning within 2 degrees of is on the foolish side. Take the Apexi Power FC, no knock control but as I stated it has a configurable knock warning. This will flash the CEL if the knock reaches the set limit you give it. I have tuned quite a few of the Power FC's and have found it to be not only one of the best ECU's but it is also oddly, one of the cheapest. I have never tuned one and been contacted later being told the CEL was flashing. I don't get near the recommend knock limit though when I am tuning.
A funny story. A few years ago before the dwell settings on the AEM's got figured out we were complaining to AEM about the ECU's. After telling AEM a few hundred times something was wrong with their ECU we installed a Power FC in our black car. The car instantly made an additional 50 whp and all the problems we had been having finally went away. It was the week after this AEM finally took the time to figure out what was wrong with the ECU's and fixed them.
Sean, I agree with your point about the knock sensors not being fool proof. I don't know what the maximum amount of timing the factory ECU can pull or the maximum amount of fuel it can add under a knock condition either. As you know you could put -50 degrees and +50% fuel in the knock correction if you wanted to and have it all come in at the slightest amount of additional voltage the sensor put out. You can literally make the car "stop" if you set it up aggressive enough.
I do NOT do that, haven't found the need for it, the point is for those who don't know, it is at least configurable to do that.
The reason I brought this up is because Dave's statement above to TedB may or may not be true. I have often wondered how various EMS tackled the problem of knock as compared to the OEM KS. The ECU contains the algorithms combined with other engine parameters to determine if knock exists. I'm assuming that algorithm is based off various stock engines that Mitsubishi has thoroughly tested in a lab and real-world environment to gather data to determine the harmonic/vibration/noise characteristics of the engine and car.
1. What type of signal does the KS send to the ecu, 0/1 on/off, or is it sending a real-time signal to the ecu similar to a frequency spectrum graph or audio wave file?
2. If you modify the engine, you're possibly changing the harmonic/vibration/noise characteristics of the engine. Would this make the algorithms invalid? Or, is it more simple than that.
Example: Say you have a firecracker and a stick of dynamite. The firecracker is normal the dynamite is knock. So when the knock sensor sees a certain level amplitude it tells the ecu the engine is knocking.
Last edited by mithrandir7533; Mar 13, 2008 at 06:24 PM.
Martin,
I think you've taken offense to my "tuning situation" I said to sharkbite. So you know I've only spoken to sharkbite once and that was about him stopping here on his way back from your shop just to see what his car made on our dyno, he called me but never came to our shop. I have never tried to sell him anything or get him to come here. The "tuning situation" that I was referring to is, I was told he was offered a 2 year warranty from you guys on his engine as long as NOBODY else tuned the car, that is his "tuning situation". I meant nothing else by it. I also said that if someone offered me a 2 year warranty on their work I'd sure as hell not have someone else tune my car.
I guess when you were making all that power you should have made a post about it, it would have been much more believable. Tuning on E85 and making power is nothing like making it safely with 93, I am sure you know that. E85 is more comparable to C16.
As for 600 whp being safe or not safe on 93 octane. From the looks of Peter's car it's pretty safe. 9,000 miles and no troubles. The videos, dyno runs and constant *** whooping he keeps handing out should be proof enough. To question it seems silly, to imply it isn't safe is rediculous, if it was so dangerous he'd have blown up or broken by now, you don't agree?
While 620 whp on 93 octane may be pushing the limits a bit wouldn't you agree 420 whp is a little over conservative?
I haven't had a singe, NOT ONE, 500+ whp pump gas EVO leave here yet that has hurt the engine, not ONE.
I think you've taken offense to my "tuning situation" I said to sharkbite. So you know I've only spoken to sharkbite once and that was about him stopping here on his way back from your shop just to see what his car made on our dyno, he called me but never came to our shop. I have never tried to sell him anything or get him to come here. The "tuning situation" that I was referring to is, I was told he was offered a 2 year warranty from you guys on his engine as long as NOBODY else tuned the car, that is his "tuning situation". I meant nothing else by it. I also said that if someone offered me a 2 year warranty on their work I'd sure as hell not have someone else tune my car.
I guess when you were making all that power you should have made a post about it, it would have been much more believable. Tuning on E85 and making power is nothing like making it safely with 93, I am sure you know that. E85 is more comparable to C16.
As for 600 whp being safe or not safe on 93 octane. From the looks of Peter's car it's pretty safe. 9,000 miles and no troubles. The videos, dyno runs and constant *** whooping he keeps handing out should be proof enough. To question it seems silly, to imply it isn't safe is rediculous, if it was so dangerous he'd have blown up or broken by now, you don't agree?
While 620 whp on 93 octane may be pushing the limits a bit wouldn't you agree 420 whp is a little over conservative?
I haven't had a singe, NOT ONE, 500+ whp pump gas EVO leave here yet that has hurt the engine, not ONE.
If bolded part above is true how did he manage to get this sweet deal?
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I really think the way you speak to myself and others makes you extremely annoying though, to tell you the truth. You beat a topic into the dirt most of the time and from the comments I am hearing a lot of people are growing a little tired of it.
I see OKIX is another to notice it.
For example, now you are bugging the crap out of Martin, obviously he has either read your question and finds you annoying and is ignoring you or he hasn't seen it and hasn't answered. To continue to ask the same thing over and over and over is freaking annoying.
I see OKIX is another to notice it.
For example, now you are bugging the crap out of Martin, obviously he has either read your question and finds you annoying and is ignoring you or he hasn't seen it and hasn't answered. To continue to ask the same thing over and over and over is freaking annoying.
So often times I'm persistent about things. If I ask you Dave about oil usage on your motors, and don't get a direct answer, I may ask again, there is no cost to me, but I can see it becomes annoying to the readers. In a thread like this I feel it ending with no conclusion, just AMS tunes safer than Buschur, but I feel there is more to it and it fascinates me. Regarding me bringing up the UK, it just astonishes me that Al is declaring Master Buschur to the Wright Brothers when in my opinion you got people flying for long time just across the pond.
Bottom line, I know I've been pretty exuberant lately and I should just mellow out a bit. Your point is taken.
You will want to play Russian roulette with 6 bullets after your finished!
Evos are far better as the components are newer, knock sensor having higher resolution, and the knock programming being much better. But that statement can still very much hold true.
gsnt,
I agree on the 1g and I know I should keep my mouth shut but if you simply install a 2G knock sensor ( a new one) in the 1G the problems you are describing will be gone. We don't do a build/tune on a 1g without putting a 2g sensor in the car.
crcain, I understand that you are very motivated, but I can tell you from personal experience if someone seems to be ignoring your question, they probably are. If you keep asking it just pisses off the guy you are asking. In the case of the oil consumption Peter and Marque both answered you and have better input than I do. My car runs at WOT on the dyno more than it does on the road and the oil is changed pretty frequently. I don't drive the cars we build for thousands of miles and had no input to the question. For example on the dyno runs. I tried to find a file on my RS two days ago. Our Mustang Dyno came up with an error code that said "Maximum search limited to 1,000 files, redefine search." In other words my file has OVER 1,000 dyno runs in it! I was amazed but it goes to show the amount of research I have done. Holy ****.
I agree on the 1g and I know I should keep my mouth shut but if you simply install a 2G knock sensor ( a new one) in the 1G the problems you are describing will be gone. We don't do a build/tune on a 1g without putting a 2g sensor in the car.
crcain, I understand that you are very motivated, but I can tell you from personal experience if someone seems to be ignoring your question, they probably are. If you keep asking it just pisses off the guy you are asking. In the case of the oil consumption Peter and Marque both answered you and have better input than I do. My car runs at WOT on the dyno more than it does on the road and the oil is changed pretty frequently. I don't drive the cars we build for thousands of miles and had no input to the question. For example on the dyno runs. I tried to find a file on my RS two days ago. Our Mustang Dyno came up with an error code that said "Maximum search limited to 1,000 files, redefine search." In other words my file has OVER 1,000 dyno runs in it! I was amazed but it goes to show the amount of research I have done. Holy ****.