USA Pump Gas Dyno and Track #'s
Tom, that is a good one, Al-Go-Rythm, nice. Al's got rythm, don't you worry, have you ever seen the guy ride a bull?! Right Al?
Al, I'd love to hear some of the conversations that are taking place "off the record". I say the world is one big al-go-rythm.
BTW, thanks Tom, I edited my signature because of you.
Al, I'd love to hear some of the conversations that are taking place "off the record". I say the world is one big al-go-rythm.
BTW, thanks Tom, I edited my signature because of you.
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It's interesting all the different ways tuners listen for knock.
For example, my friends cousin down here in the Caribbean, he does some tuning on the side, although I think he is full of ****. He laughs at me using the headphone to listen for det. He claims he can hear it with his naked ear just fine. His good friend in Puerto Rico who by all accounts IS a good tuner, also just goes by ear. This tuner in PR apparently has done many import cars in the 8's and 7's I believe. They use Microtech and Haltech. Neither of which have knock control AFAIK.
The person who tuned my car from England, Mark Shead, he swears by the headphones and says he'd never let anyone touch a car without them. Simon Norris I believes uses headphones, but amplified ones. Mark told me a story once how Simon and himself had an engine on the dyno and both were listening to det with their respective tool. They both heard it at the exact same time, but Simon prefers the electronic one apparently. I've never seen either of these guys put out a big customer build at less than 2 bar on pump.
Dave Buschur uses the AEM logging of the knock sensor primarily. And probably many other tuners use this method when tuning AEM's. The trick here seems to me distinguishing noise from knock when viewing what amounts to _seeing_ sound waves. I've never used this method so can't speak to it's accuracy but obviously it works pretty good based on Dave's results.
Then all the stock ECU guys rely on knock counts.
Then some people rely on the dyno entirely, and watch when timing is added and power does not go up. This I think does not work too well with big boost on pump as det will occur before power drops. Just what I've read I don't know. Never used a dyno before.
Then finally I guess you can read the plugs which is the oldest of old school but still a good thing to check regardless.
Anyway, I just find it interesting all the different methods used.
For example, my friends cousin down here in the Caribbean, he does some tuning on the side, although I think he is full of ****. He laughs at me using the headphone to listen for det. He claims he can hear it with his naked ear just fine. His good friend in Puerto Rico who by all accounts IS a good tuner, also just goes by ear. This tuner in PR apparently has done many import cars in the 8's and 7's I believe. They use Microtech and Haltech. Neither of which have knock control AFAIK.
The person who tuned my car from England, Mark Shead, he swears by the headphones and says he'd never let anyone touch a car without them. Simon Norris I believes uses headphones, but amplified ones. Mark told me a story once how Simon and himself had an engine on the dyno and both were listening to det with their respective tool. They both heard it at the exact same time, but Simon prefers the electronic one apparently. I've never seen either of these guys put out a big customer build at less than 2 bar on pump.
Dave Buschur uses the AEM logging of the knock sensor primarily. And probably many other tuners use this method when tuning AEM's. The trick here seems to me distinguishing noise from knock when viewing what amounts to _seeing_ sound waves. I've never used this method so can't speak to it's accuracy but obviously it works pretty good based on Dave's results.
Then all the stock ECU guys rely on knock counts.
Then some people rely on the dyno entirely, and watch when timing is added and power does not go up. This I think does not work too well with big boost on pump as det will occur before power drops. Just what I've read I don't know. Never used a dyno before.
Then finally I guess you can read the plugs which is the oldest of old school but still a good thing to check regardless.
Anyway, I just find it interesting all the different methods used.
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There is some doubt obviously from other tuners. Like in this thread from AMS. What I would be curious about if I was AMS, is why not take one of your customer builds, and say hey, we want to make you 600 instead of 400. If your engine blows we'll take care of it. And just turn the wick up on that b!tch and see what happens. Throw theory out the window for a sec. Tell the guy to fill up at Shell or whatever you tune on only. And see what happens.
It's the lack of evidence that the above has been tried and failed that makes it so easy to believe Buschur and not the ones questioning him.
(not to mention the UK guys running 600+ engine power every single time w/GT35R customer cars on pump)
It's the lack of evidence that the above has been tried and failed that makes it so easy to believe Buschur and not the ones questioning him.
(not to mention the UK guys running 600+ engine power every single time w/GT35R customer cars on pump)
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At 30 psi on pump will you see torque drop or stay flat when adding timing? I thought the car might keep making power right to det?
He claims he can hear it with his naked ear just fine. His good friend in Puerto Rico who by all accounts IS a good tuner, also just goes by ear. This tuner in PR apparently has done many import cars in the 8's and 7's I believe. They use Microtech and Haltech. Neither of which have knock control AFAIK.
It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye.
Particularly on a modified car every knock count is not detonation or knock, often they are merely engine sound.
Conversely, often actual knock can be not recorded as a knock count.
It is important to listen to the car, look at the plugs and observe the dyno sheet closely to discern what is noise and what is knock.
Of course a loud sounding car presents particularly difficult chalenges for a stock ecu when tuning.
Al
Conversely, often actual knock can be not recorded as a knock count.
It is important to listen to the car, look at the plugs and observe the dyno sheet closely to discern what is noise and what is knock.
Of course a loud sounding car presents particularly difficult chalenges for a stock ecu when tuning.
Al
Race cars aren't nearly as good of candidates for knock control as street cars. Race cars have the benefit of more consistent fuel and loading, and contend with mostly atmospheric changes. Like I said, the problem for a street car is what happens when one gets a bad tank of fuel or something, then it will be a contest to see if one can get his foot out of it before it lets go. At least the old composition head gaskets acted as a fuse and usually blew before the engine did. This isn't the case with MLS gaskets.
It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye.
I am reminded of my 91 octane California experiences and realizing how thin the margin is between a car that is tuned well and one which is knocking and pulling timing. The stock knock system is very effective and works well with that **** gas.
Knock control is very important for street vehicles as the fuel we use varies greatly in quality from day to day.
Most of our decent builds make 425-460whp on pump gas. I advise customers of the safe limit and they can do whatever they want with their car. For example I had a customer with a stock engine and our 50trim turbo kit making over 400whp on pump gas running at Road America all day long. 4 mile long track with very long straights and lots of WOT throttle running. I can't control what a customer is going to do but I can and will prepare his car so it will put up with anything thrown at it.
Tim
Ok now fellas, be nice. 
Which should be able to be remedied somewhat by altering the factory ECU's knock table, but since I have no idea of just what those values really are, I am reluctant to touch it. Apparently, they are set to sensitize/desensitize the KS response in certain load ranges, but I don't know if anyone has determined exactly what they are or how they are calculated.
Which should be able to be remedied somewhat by altering the factory ECU's knock table, but since I have no idea of just what those values really are, I am reluctant to touch it. Apparently, they are set to sensitize/desensitize the KS response in certain load ranges, but I don't know if anyone has determined exactly what they are or how they are calculated.
Ok now fellas, be nice.
Which should be able to be remedied somewhat by altering the factory ECU's knock table, but since I have no idea of just what those values really are, I am reluctant to touch it. Apparently, they are set to sensitize/desensitize the KS response in certain load ranges, but I don't know if anyone has determined exactly what they are or how they are calculated.
Which should be able to be remedied somewhat by altering the factory ECU's knock table, but since I have no idea of just what those values really are, I am reluctant to touch it. Apparently, they are set to sensitize/desensitize the KS response in certain load ranges, but I don't know if anyone has determined exactly what they are or how they are calculated.
I have found that in most cases the best path is to work with the stock knock system when possible and tune within the noise profile the OEM
engineers have set up.Al
Hey Al, just out of curiosity you did a compression test on his car? For reference stock cams will give about 175-185psi of cranking compression. Now if you have cams in the engine which closes the intake valve later the dynamic compression will be lower.
For example:
Stock cams: 175-185psi
HKS 272: 165psi
JUN 272, Tomei 280 or other longer effective duration camshafts: 140-150psi
Or you can just retard the intake cam and watch cranking compression go down. I find it interesting that the dynamic compression (cranking compression) is so high. Maybe your compression tester is broken? Usually higher dynamic compression is more prone to detonation as low-mid speed engine running torque is up (higher cylinder pressures) and there is physically more time for detonation to propagate. A later intake valve closing will reduce dynamic compression and promote higher cylinder pressure at higher RPM's, given that the rest of the components keep up, effectively reducing lower end torque in trade for higher rpm torque (horsepower). The higher RPM's make it a little easier to make power while avoiding detonation, everything happens much quicker.
For example:
Stock cams: 175-185psi
HKS 272: 165psi
JUN 272, Tomei 280 or other longer effective duration camshafts: 140-150psi
Or you can just retard the intake cam and watch cranking compression go down. I find it interesting that the dynamic compression (cranking compression) is so high. Maybe your compression tester is broken? Usually higher dynamic compression is more prone to detonation as low-mid speed engine running torque is up (higher cylinder pressures) and there is physically more time for detonation to propagate. A later intake valve closing will reduce dynamic compression and promote higher cylinder pressure at higher RPM's, given that the rest of the components keep up, effectively reducing lower end torque in trade for higher rpm torque (horsepower). The higher RPM's make it a little easier to make power while avoiding detonation, everything happens much quicker.
I brought this up with Bad Bish so he came by today to check out the new Launching Aide we created and we did a compression test on his engine - all 4 cylinders read the same - although slightly lower on our gauge at 170
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xhg1LJB20m4
