USA Pump Gas Dyno and Track #'s
Evolving Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 272
Likes: 0
From: In front of a Catia screen
Here you go, I did it for you guys (and me as I can never explain the difference).
DETONATION:
Detonation in reciprocating engines is the uncontrolled supersonic explosion of the fuel-air charge, and is caused by excessively high combustion chamber temperatures. Increasing the temperature of the fuel-air charge increases the speed of combustion until the flame propagates at supersonic speeds, resulting in a pressure shockwave. This force is extremely destructive to common piston engines, and often results in holes blown through the top of pistons or cracks in cylinder heads.
PREIGNITION
Pre-ignition (or preignition) in a spark-ignition engine is often confused or conflated with engine knocking. In fact, it is a different phenomenon, when the air/fuel mixture in the cylinder ignites before the spark plug fires. It is initiated by an ignition source other than the spark, such as hot spots in the combustion chamber, a spark plug that runs too hot for the application, or carbonaceous deposits in the combustion chamber heated to incandescence by previous engine combustion events. Dieseling or run-on is the same phenomenon, but refers to the engine continuing to run after the ignition is shut off with a hot spot as an ignition source for the fuel air mixture. Because both preignition and engine knock sharply increase combustion chamber temperatures, either effect can increase the likelihood of the other effect occurring. Given proper combustion chamber design, preignition can generally be eliminated by proper spark plug selection, proper fuel mixture adjustment, and periodic cleaning of the combustion chambers.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These are both very interesting to read. Looks to me like there are a lot of reasons that the cars I am tuning to 500+ whp are holding together with no problems. Also shows why many cars will not/cannot make this kind of power without knocking.
Large FMIC's, ported cylinder heads with a lot of attention in the combustion chamber, the correct heat range on the spark plugs.............all things we pay very close attention to.
DETONATION:
Detonation in reciprocating engines is the uncontrolled supersonic explosion of the fuel-air charge, and is caused by excessively high combustion chamber temperatures. Increasing the temperature of the fuel-air charge increases the speed of combustion until the flame propagates at supersonic speeds, resulting in a pressure shockwave. This force is extremely destructive to common piston engines, and often results in holes blown through the top of pistons or cracks in cylinder heads.
PREIGNITION
Pre-ignition (or preignition) in a spark-ignition engine is often confused or conflated with engine knocking. In fact, it is a different phenomenon, when the air/fuel mixture in the cylinder ignites before the spark plug fires. It is initiated by an ignition source other than the spark, such as hot spots in the combustion chamber, a spark plug that runs too hot for the application, or carbonaceous deposits in the combustion chamber heated to incandescence by previous engine combustion events. Dieseling or run-on is the same phenomenon, but refers to the engine continuing to run after the ignition is shut off with a hot spot as an ignition source for the fuel air mixture. Because both preignition and engine knock sharply increase combustion chamber temperatures, either effect can increase the likelihood of the other effect occurring. Given proper combustion chamber design, preignition can generally be eliminated by proper spark plug selection, proper fuel mixture adjustment, and periodic cleaning of the combustion chambers.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These are both very interesting to read. Looks to me like there are a lot of reasons that the cars I am tuning to 500+ whp are holding together with no problems. Also shows why many cars will not/cannot make this kind of power without knocking.
Large FMIC's, ported cylinder heads with a lot of attention in the combustion chamber, the correct heat range on the spark plugs.............all things we pay very close attention to.
Here you go, I did it for you guys (and me as I can never explain the difference).
DETONATION:
Detonation in reciprocating engines is the uncontrolled supersonic explosion of the fuel-air charge, and is caused by excessively high combustion chamber temperatures. Increasing the temperature of the fuel-air charge increases the speed of combustion until the flame propagates at supersonic speeds, resulting in a pressure shockwave. This force is extremely destructive to common piston engines, and often results in holes blown through the top of pistons or cracks in cylinder heads.
PREIGNITION
Pre-ignition (or preignition) in a spark-ignition engine is often confused or conflated with engine knocking. In fact, it is a different phenomenon, when the air/fuel mixture in the cylinder ignites before the spark plug fires. It is initiated by an ignition source other than the spark, such as hot spots in the combustion chamber, a spark plug that runs too hot for the application, or carbonaceous deposits in the combustion chamber heated to incandescence by previous engine combustion events. Dieseling or run-on is the same phenomenon, but refers to the engine continuing to run after the ignition is shut off with a hot spot as an ignition source for the fuel air mixture. Because both preignition and engine knock sharply increase combustion chamber temperatures, either effect can increase the likelihood of the other effect occurring. Given proper combustion chamber design, preignition can generally be eliminated by proper spark plug selection, proper fuel mixture adjustment, and periodic cleaning of the combustion chambers.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These are both very interesting to read. Looks to me like there are a lot of reasons that the cars I am tuning to 500+ whp are holding together with no problems. Also shows why many cars will not/cannot make this kind of power without knocking.
Large FMIC's, ported cylinder heads with a lot of attention in the combustion chamber, the correct heat range on the spark plugs.............all things we pay very close attention to.
DETONATION:
Detonation in reciprocating engines is the uncontrolled supersonic explosion of the fuel-air charge, and is caused by excessively high combustion chamber temperatures. Increasing the temperature of the fuel-air charge increases the speed of combustion until the flame propagates at supersonic speeds, resulting in a pressure shockwave. This force is extremely destructive to common piston engines, and often results in holes blown through the top of pistons or cracks in cylinder heads.
PREIGNITION
Pre-ignition (or preignition) in a spark-ignition engine is often confused or conflated with engine knocking. In fact, it is a different phenomenon, when the air/fuel mixture in the cylinder ignites before the spark plug fires. It is initiated by an ignition source other than the spark, such as hot spots in the combustion chamber, a spark plug that runs too hot for the application, or carbonaceous deposits in the combustion chamber heated to incandescence by previous engine combustion events. Dieseling or run-on is the same phenomenon, but refers to the engine continuing to run after the ignition is shut off with a hot spot as an ignition source for the fuel air mixture. Because both preignition and engine knock sharply increase combustion chamber temperatures, either effect can increase the likelihood of the other effect occurring. Given proper combustion chamber design, preignition can generally be eliminated by proper spark plug selection, proper fuel mixture adjustment, and periodic cleaning of the combustion chambers.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These are both very interesting to read. Looks to me like there are a lot of reasons that the cars I am tuning to 500+ whp are holding together with no problems. Also shows why many cars will not/cannot make this kind of power without knocking.
Large FMIC's, ported cylinder heads with a lot of attention in the combustion chamber, the correct heat range on the spark plugs.............all things we pay very close attention to.
Former Sponsor
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 984
Likes: 0
From: Chicagoland
http://www.amsperformance.com/pdfs/EvostageII.pdf
Why post WHEN ITS PUBLISHED?????????? Modified Magazine YEARS ago. Take a look at the pictures.. THATS OUR DRAG CAR!!!!!!
http://www.amsperformance.com/pdfs/EvostageII.pdf
http://www.amsperformance.com/pdfs/EvostageII.pdf
Very nice write up
Ive always loved how open AMS is about there information
I agree with David. I saw the Bad Bish with my own eyes making the big pump gas power and certainly the Bad Bish has been very reliable. The results prove that Buschur's tuning works. Action speaks louder than words. While its easy to say its not safe, obviously its safe enough to have beaten every other evo in our area. The only ones who are not safe are those who bet against the Bad Bish. The Bad Bish is undefeated.
I really don't see you saying anything if anything did go wrong. Please correct me if im wrong but would you???
Former Sponsor
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 984
Likes: 0
From: Chicagoland
.
When I started in the Evo scene some 5 years ago I knew of David Buschur as one of my heros of Import drag racing. Of course he was racing in the scene back in the day with all the pioneers of Import Drag racing, guys who have been doing this a lot longer than you or I and who have been there done that on what you and I are doing now - and then some.
It was always my dream to have the opportunity to be a member of the Buschur Team - if only with a very small role. Since I have been working with David I have found him to be a very honest and stand up guy and a person who is a loyal and good friend.
Its funny that you ask me IF I would mention If something went wrong.
Let me say that Buschur does not sell junk and what they sell works. I have been asked on very rare occassion to help with a small problem with customer's in my area who may have small problems like needing an idle adjustment. Buschur always gives great customer support.
Its interesting when David called me and asked if the Bad Bish could come down and run on our dyno I asked him what to do if the car did not make as much power on oyur dyno as he was claiming - this beucase at the time I simply did not think it was possible to make so much power on pump gas.
David said "I am 100% confident that the car will make the power, don't worry"
Sure enough the car made the power and then some.
All humans make mistakes on occassion. I have found David Buschur to be the most experienced expert on 4G63 matters that I have ever met.
I hope this answers your question ?
Thats what real drag racing is about getting out there and running consistent times and getting more than 2 or 3 glory passes in.
Evolving Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 486
Likes: 0
From: 900 pounds lighter than a X.
Big pumpgas Numbers get easier with the evolution of combinations on these evos, the gt42 cars will do it easily, no big deal, better volumetric efficiency.
I remember pushing the stock motor combo over 500 on pump/meth, this was a few yrs ago and I cannot remember it being common at that time, today quite common.
Martin is an excellent tuner, and I have seen many examples of his work. There are very few AEM tuners out there as good as Martin. In Martin's defense, I would say 420hp on 23psi is what I turn alot of cars out at very safe, and exactly what they make with those sized turbos, sure there is more that can be made if you push, but the margin of safety becomes less and less.
You will notice with the Hondas that a B18 C motor can do it very easily, 600HP pumpgas, less boost than an evo engine with the same sized turbo, engine design good breathing will allow it to make the HP at lower boost levels.
As for 32psi on an evo, with the bigger available cams, Jun, BR whatever I do them all the time they will make 600HP, I have accidentally made that without the meth not even realizing it was not on till I noticed the elevated knock levels, so it's doable, but it will be knocking on 93 octane pump, and you can do it but I expect the engine to degrade eventually, but who runs them to 100K like that.
The laws of physics dictate what can be done on certain fuels, if not so why not make 700HP on 93 octane.
Not all customers are carefull and meticulous about their cars, some do not even notice when something is wrong. Therefore I would be very reluctant sending the car out like that. Put the meth on it, let's have a little more safety margin.
AEM knock detection while very usefull on cars that are lightly modded is less usefull after a certain point, especially when you do supras and certain other cars it becomes very obvious, I agree with martin 100% there is more to knock detection than that.
Dave has a good customer, and he obviously is in tune with the car. It did make 600HP on pumpgas, it did beat up on a few cars, it seems to be still running. I do know it weighs in at 2575lbs without driver. With 750 wheel HP it will fly.
Sean
I remember pushing the stock motor combo over 500 on pump/meth, this was a few yrs ago and I cannot remember it being common at that time, today quite common.
Martin is an excellent tuner, and I have seen many examples of his work. There are very few AEM tuners out there as good as Martin. In Martin's defense, I would say 420hp on 23psi is what I turn alot of cars out at very safe, and exactly what they make with those sized turbos, sure there is more that can be made if you push, but the margin of safety becomes less and less.
You will notice with the Hondas that a B18 C motor can do it very easily, 600HP pumpgas, less boost than an evo engine with the same sized turbo, engine design good breathing will allow it to make the HP at lower boost levels.
As for 32psi on an evo, with the bigger available cams, Jun, BR whatever I do them all the time they will make 600HP, I have accidentally made that without the meth not even realizing it was not on till I noticed the elevated knock levels, so it's doable, but it will be knocking on 93 octane pump, and you can do it but I expect the engine to degrade eventually, but who runs them to 100K like that.
The laws of physics dictate what can be done on certain fuels, if not so why not make 700HP on 93 octane.
Not all customers are carefull and meticulous about their cars, some do not even notice when something is wrong. Therefore I would be very reluctant sending the car out like that. Put the meth on it, let's have a little more safety margin.
AEM knock detection while very usefull on cars that are lightly modded is less usefull after a certain point, especially when you do supras and certain other cars it becomes very obvious, I agree with martin 100% there is more to knock detection than that.
Dave has a good customer, and he obviously is in tune with the car. It did make 600HP on pumpgas, it did beat up on a few cars, it seems to be still running. I do know it weighs in at 2575lbs without driver. With 750 wheel HP it will fly.
Sean
Most of all I respect the fact also that you had mentioned to me first thing that Buschur had Built/tuned my car and said that you did not want to have any problems with warrenty on my build.(When I asked to see what I would make)
My goal was to run my car on DynoJet/Dyno/Dynamics and Mustang Dyno all within the same week.I was very respectful to you personally with that statement you made and you have always had said great things about other tuners builds and been very upfront about it thankyou.Peter.