Some input on my part.

Al, I agree, adding methanol injection to the car is a great way to make big power on "cheaper" pump gas fuel with a minimal added expense (alky kits use very little alcohol as they only spray over a set boost level). My problem is the actual reliability of the kits. We have had great success with the SMC kits but this like any other "race" part has to be monitored. I had a customer who's car made well over 500 whp on pump/alky take his car. Later down the road he complained of the performance being poor compared to how it use to feel. I said he was probably getting use to the power. After looking at logs I saw the car was basically in a "limp" mode (used the AEM EMS to tune it). I suggested turning the boost down. The car then woke up. In the next few conversations with this customer I discovered it had an alky kit on it (I had forgotten this). We then realized the alky kit had quit working and he had been driving the car for quite some time like this at 30 psi of boost. Luckily the time was taken (as with all of them we do) to set up the AEM to control the alky kit. When it failed the car just went into a basic "safe mode" and killed the power. All was good, alky kit was fixed and the power went back to normal.

In the case of an alky kit the customer has to keep his eye on the kit and warnings to let him know it is or isn't working. With the AEM being set up properly there is really no fear if it fails.

At one time I felt the alky kits were the only way to make big numbers on pump gas. I have now found that isn't true at all and would actually prefer to tune a car on pump gas only and completely leave the alky kits off the cars.

Martin,

Al did not do the compression test on Peter's car. Peter did it himself and sent me a picture of the compression gauge. Even if his gauge is reading high (and I agree with you on the camshafts changing cranking compression) the cylinders are all equal across the cylinders, all coming in at 175 psi on the gauge. I would have expected to see closer to 140-150 compression myself but was happy to see them all equal, which is more important. I believe the camshafts play a huge roll in making big power on pump gas. As I was saying to you one the phone earlier, every single car we've made big power on pump gas with have had our BF272's in them.

crcain, I agree with you. A customer who comes here and spends $20,000 on a build doesn't just want power when he is on C16, those days seem to be gone and I can't blame them. I have run nothing but C16 in my car for the last two years (with the exception of some E85/ethanol) and it is very expensive and not convienent. With the power levels I am seeing now I see no reason to do this anymore and plan to not only run more pump gas in my own car this year but I also fully intend to put my car into the 9's using 93 octane only. I don't even think it is going to be a challenge to be honest.

I have been lucky and in 19 years I have been involved in very very few problems with customers. If something goes wrong I will generally just step up and take care of it, even if it was something out of my control. I know there are customers reading this right now who can vouch for this statement. Going to court, messing with lawyers is just ugly and I'd rather take a loss and keep things civil than mess with that. I have fixed things that I shouldn't have fixed and were broken from shear stupidity. (I won't be specific in fear of offending someone

With all that said, so far this 500+ whp stuff has caused no problems at all. I think when tuning a car for this level of power on pump gas (especially on pump gas) you have to be VERY VERY careful and set up all parameters to safe guard the car in case something does go wrong. You also have to explain to the customer if he "feels or hears something that isn't just right, LIFT OFF THE GAS YOU IDIOT!!!!!" haha Seriously though.

 

OK, I have not answered this before but I am going to finally address it. The only thing I use to tune cars with is the knock sensor and the dyno. I don't use det cans, I owned a Chassis Ear and sold it.

I don't know if I am truly dense or what but I have no problems tuning with the factory knock sesnors in the Suburu's, EVO's, DSM's, Supras, Buicks, 300z's, I've tuned them all and have not had any blown up from detonation. Mustangs (turbo V8's), I tune those too, NO knock sensor, never had one blow up.

I'm truly do not understand the comments made about the knock sensor in the 4g63. Maybe it's from years of "sneaking up" on the limits but I can tune a car, watch the knock sensor and tell if the sensor is reading where it should be, dead or slow. I also tune based on the dyno graphs a lot. You can watch the HP/TQ (any tuner knows this) and see when you are getting close to, at or past the limits of ignition timing. When you get to the limits you have to back it off from there to a safe level. I guess we all have a different idea of the "safe level". In my defense though, no cars are blowing up or having problems.

I have to be honest, I think the "safe" level is much higher than most of the people here are thinking it is and still somewhat higher than I am thinking it is.

Look at the Japanese fuel managements. HKS V Pro, no knock control. Apexi Power FC, no knock control. Those teams are making crazy power and have been doing it reliably for years.

I do feel knock control is extremely important. I use it on every single car I tune, even our black drag car. IF the car is set up correctly I am 100% confident the AEM knock control is as good if not better than the factory ECU's control.

I have tuned quite a few Apexi Power FC's, uses no knock control, only has a warning light you can set up that flashes the CEL. They are the most trouble free ECU's I have ever used. I have not had one of those come back either or had a customer call to let me know something had changed and the CEL is flashing.

The factory ECU's parameters are simply set up to tight. As an engine makes more power and more RPM the noise goes up, that is simple to understand. Seeing that a knock sensor works from frequency vibrations it's easy to see why the stock ECU's will react to what it believes is knock as the engine produces more and more power/rpm. Some of this is just that, extra "noise". You have to sort this noise out when using a different fuel management. Most people do NOT take the time to set up a base table for the AEM's knock control and then blame it for not working well enough, that's BS. IF you set up the knock control, timing tables, boost limits on the AEM in the case of something going wrong the car would run so absolutely horribly that ANYONE would lift off the gas.

BTW, I AM NOT ARGUEING WITH ANYONE. I AM SIMPLY ADDING MY COMMENTS AND OPINIONS TO THE DISCUSSION LIKE I SAID I WOULD.

 

Martin,

Serious question. Why do you feel like this: "But the AEM has little to no knock signal processing"?

What is it you don't like about it, I am curious as it works perfectly for me.

 

I would think that the less processing and filtering that the knock sensor outputs go through the better.. It would increase the chance of reading a count or two of knock, that may not be knock, but couldn't that be a good thing?

Why would using the raw data be worse than the stock ecu's algorithim that may filter out something?

 

Depending on the car the voltage output the AEM displays can be difficult to differentiate from knock events. It's not looking at a crank angle window and comparing to non-knock events and it's not applying any filters. Again I'm not an expert on OEM knock strategy but I've read some SAE papers and it's pretty complex. You can use the AEM knock sensor and I do on all cars with pump gas tunes. And there are many after market stand alone ECU that's don't implement knock strategies because it takes a high speed processor to be able to monitor and react accordingly, and to be honest most after market ECU's don't have the processing power of OEM units. The big dollar stuff (Bosch, Pectel) is capable and is what is used in high end racing.

 

The VPRO after version 3.24 has FULL Knock control functions.
The AEM knock control works well on some cars, even for a simple voltage based device.

87 octane in a stock ecu car at stage 4 levels , run it down the highway it blows up........but hey the factory knock control is great.


Sean

 

Dave it sounds as if you've setup the AEM to do something which is very noticeable when it encounters knock. And if you assume often your customers will let you know when this happens. How often do you hear of this happening?

I'm just thinking, you buy the same grade fuel, from the same brand station, how much variation are you really going to get? I'd suspect it is extremely unlikely to get bad gas in this situation. I mean so bad a safety margin of a couple degrees advance would not handle. I think this explains why tuners can make great power on pump on ECU's without knock control like Autronic for example.

 

For the rest of you that are as dumb as me I looked up "algorithm" so I knew what it was as I have heard it a few hundred times and never bothered before.

Algorithm:

In mathematics, computing, linguistics and related disciplines, an algorithm is a type of effective method in which a definite list of well-defined instructions for completing a task, when given an initial state, will proceed through a well-defined series of successive states, eventually terminating in an end-state.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, in simpler terms I'd call it a simple flow chart. Like this: Wanna get laid->go the bar->no chicks at the bar->go to the mall->only young girls at the mall->stay there or if you don't like young girls->go the old folks home->can't score because all the girls are dry->end solution GO HOME. Kind of like that

Sean,

I think you are being sarcastic, which is of little use but maybe I am wrong. Are you saying the factory knock sensor control sucks? Since you bothered to quote what I wrote I am trying to figure out what it is you want to say.

 

The (only) issue I have with the Autronic is the absence of any type of knock control. If you have the engine tuned to the detonation threshold, any change that increases physical loading (e.g. 1-2 more people in the car) will likely initiate knock, and there can be no response.


Yes, it's the set of instructions the ECU follows when triggered by a voltage threshold at the KS to determine if the voltage really is the onset of preignition, or something else. Obviously, the more complex the algorithm, the faster the processor needs to be.

Something without an algorithm would just be: X voltage = knock.

 

I am referring to the cases where 87 octane has been pumped into evos and subsequently the motor has been blown all with the great factory knock control.
My point being knock control is not infallible.
For the AEM I think the knock sensing is ok on some cars and sucks on others due to excessive noise, especially some of the higher powered supras, and evos.

Sean

 

crcain, I don't hear of it. The only example I can think of is the one I used already with the car set up with the alky kit on it. The kit failed, the performance dropped considerably and he contacted us.

There are so many things that can be done on the AEM to set it up safely. I hate to go into great detail as I feel my tuning is what brings a lot of people to our shop, especially right now when there is so much interest in making this power on pump gas.

There will be more and more tuners that come around and find this easy and possible (like I am now) in the months/years to come. It's good to be where I am now.

 

Well, I for one certainly hope and believe that the factory knock control works.
David, I like your algorithm. If Al had said that I guess it would have been an Al-go-rhythm. Ok, ok, it sucked. I agree.

 

The factory knock control is very effective at REACTION to knock events

I feel if you are in the "window" of reality with the tune it is going to do an amazing job of protecting and preserving the engine and reacting to changes in climatic conditions and fuel variations

Of course there are situations where extreme parts failure and extreme poor quality fuel result in conbustion situations so violent and erratic that there is no time to respond before the engine is toasted

Two examples which come to mind are car which recieved 87 octane by mistake from a gas station attendant and the piston cracked before the ecu could react and another car which had a improperly jetted NOS set up which also grenaded instantly.

Since uses an REACTIVE knock protection system it is crucial that the initial tune is within a safe window

 

Ted B, well that explains it then. The ECU has to go through too many calculations to determine what is causing the "noise". The AEM on the other hand uses simple knock voltage and completely explains why it makes it so easy for me and modified engines.

The Autronic that you used for an example. I think if you are tuning an engine management that has no knock control tuning within 2 degrees of is on the foolish side. Take the Apexi Power FC, no knock control but as I stated it has a configurable knock warning. This will flash the CEL if the knock reaches the set limit you give it. I have tuned quite a few of the Power FC's and have found it to be not only one of the best ECU's but it is also oddly, one of the cheapest. I have never tuned one and been contacted later being told the CEL was flashing. I don't get near the recommend knock limit though when I am tuning.

A funny story. A few years ago before the dwell settings on the AEM's got figured out we were complaining to AEM about the ECU's. After telling AEM a few hundred times something was wrong with their ECU we installed a Power FC in our black car. The car instantly made an additional 50 whp and all the problems we had been having finally went away. It was the week after this AEM finally took the time to figure out what was wrong with the ECU's and fixed them.

Sean, I agree with your point about the knock sensors not being fool proof. I don't know what the maximum amount of timing the factory ECU can pull or the maximum amount of fuel it can add under a knock condition either. As you know you could put -50 degrees and +50% fuel in the knock correction if you wanted to and have it all come in at the slightest amount of additional voltage the sensor put out. You can literally make the car "stop" if you set it up aggressive enough.

I do NOT do that, haven't found the need for it, the point is for those who don't know, it is atleast configurable to do that.

 

I agree with you that it is the way you tune which makes the success of the BAD BISH car possible

I examined the data logs and the way in which you set up the tuning and it is certainly a very unique approach

I laugh my *** off when I think of these haters who claim what you do is not poissible

It reminds me of back in the day when "experts" would claim that the world was flat. Free thinkers came along and suggested that the world was round. We all know how much those flat world theorists hung to their opinions about the shape of the world.

At the end of the day its hard to argue with results.