Dave I appreciate your time talking to me, and AMS too. For all my questioning, I have HUGE respect for you both and I do feel lucky I even have the opportunity to talk to you, period.

 

so what's the criteria for the pump gas record? is it for a street car? cause i imagine some 42r equiped cars would make over 620 on pump gas (i.e. al making 788)

 

Yes the 2G knock sensor is much more readable than the 1G, we too have been doing that since we first started AEM tuning. I don't think that's a secret anymore I've experimented with other Bosch style knock sensors also in different parts of the block and it gives some interesting results. From what I remember the nissan (KA) knock sensor was pretty low voltage output and it actually gave some good feedback in regards to knock.

 

Pump gas record...hmm... basically how risky do you want to get. Just like running 55psi of boost on race gas and making over 1000whp is risky, so is pushing the limits on pump gas. It's basically a point we can argue over forever. max power on pump gas, sheit, easy make a banzai pull and put up something ridiculous. Or how about it has to last 10 WOT pulls in a row under certain load conditions, or maybe only 5 or 20 pulls? See how complicated it gets? In the end the big number is what people remember and compare to, sorta of a shock value. I guess it doesn't matter what the consequences or 'logic' behind is. If that's what it comes down to and that's what the customers respect so be it, we'll see what happens.

How close do you want to get to the fire before you get burned?

 

I think the point of the Bad Bish excercise that impressed me what the fact that it was not 1 pull, 10 pulls or even 20 pulls.

We are talking about a guy with 9,000 plus miles, dozens of dyno pulls at Buschur and then dozens more on our dyno. Racing all over the place and driving the car on the road every day all the time.

Is this car a "special" car - is this a fluke - or is this the sign of things to come over time.

We'll see what happens seems to make the most sense.

Al

 

Al, I wasn't talking to you or about bad bish, I was replying to the question by someone else. You have to sneak in a comment every time. I also don't think you understand my statement. Doing pulls all the time, making runs on the street, ect. If I drive my car for 20,000 highway miles, make 550whp, then do 20 dyno pulls with cool down, and do some street pulls, does that classify a significant test? Sure for somone that is gong to do just that. What if that person does 1-5th gear roll-ons, goes to the road course, or autocrosses? My point is that the conditions will be different for everyone and that it will significantly impact the outcome of the test.

How about you add something technical to the discussion instead of regurgitating the same thing every time.

 

I think a HPDE day in any of these 500 whp pump gas beasts would be a good test.

Dave, Would you have any hesitation if U2SLO wanted to take his car to a roadcourse in it's current state of tune on pump gas. Would you suggest he put any high octane gas in for a safety margin?

 

I would like to see the logs of one of these pump gas monsters making a top speed pull.

 

I think what we need is more examples of cars tuned like the Bad Bish car driven under varying conditions to make technical conclusions about the saftey of that kind of set up.

From what I have seen with my own eyes the Bad Bish has driven his car through the gears on pump gas many times to speeds I do not wish to discuss - (he was driving I was watching).

My technical observations were looking at multiple dyno sheets - shich I have posted - doinga compression test - looking at the spark plugs several times and examining the aem data logs and tuning roms created by Master Buschur. I have used this data to verify the veracity of what had been claimed and to determine that this car runs without any detonation what so ever at the stated power and boost levels on pump gas.

While he certainly had not yet done any road racing with the car, from my own observations he is one of if not the most abusive and hard core Evo owner I have seen to date.

At some point in the future it would be interesting to see a tear down down of his car to look at the rods, bearings and pistons and see how everything has been fairing with this kind of extreme pump gas running.

From my perspective the only "technical" data that would be valid is real world testing and experimentation to determine what the long term reliability is on this car and others tuned in a similar fashion.

So far so good.

 

I am trying very very hard to stay nice in this thread. Really I am. It seems there is a pattern though. Someone makes an example of something that is being done and then someone else pops in and says "yeah old news, been there done that". Now Al is being accused of adding nothing substantial. Well if all this stuff was done "years" ago where was it posted?

I read the article posted by 9sec240, there is NO mention of pump gas in that magazine article. It does say higher octane fuel was added and the boost was turned up to 20 psi though...........then the launch control was done years ago......now it's the 2g knock sensor right after Eric just said tuning 20 1g's in a row will show all different levels of knock activity. Well hell if the 2g sensor is so common why not bolt it in those 20 cars so they could actually be tuned?

I guess I am the only one who posts what he is working on and talks about it. I find all these "been there done that but it didn't work" posts a little annoying.

If 525 whp was done on pump 4 years ago (on a FWD Dynojet I might add) then with todays technology doing it again should be so safe the car could be run from here to California at WOT.

 

Road racing. The question was would Peter be able to road race his car at this state of tune. Judging from the AFR's, knock counts etc., I'd say yes. Would I want him to run out and do it right now? Probably not.

 

https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...ad.php?t=91240

That is one of the post back in 2004. I'll keep looking but I know I wound up pushing it to around 525whp at upper 20psi of boost at one point (no intake manifold, HKS 272 cams, ect) Anyways I'm not trying to start anything just saying that I've done the same things at one point.
We've been putting 2g knock sensors in 1g's way before we worked on EVO's. The only reason I mentioned it because the way you said it was like you were letting us in on a secret. Which is completely fine, I'm just saying that we already know about it. I'd expect the same response from anyone.

Again we could keep going around and around but let's leave it at this.
Dave, you feel more comfortable running the car at that level on pump gas and choose to do so. I on the other hand prefer to run it more conservative for our customers. Maybe I should create a waiver the sign off on and let it rip?

 

Martin, I just want to remind you that I have the utmost respect for you and your company, I've said it countless times. I am 110% certain that YOU can tune a car safely at the same boost and octane that I am doing. I realize you chose not to and I am fine with that, completely. I have absolutely nothing negative to say about you for chosing that. Hell I may very well be crazy for doing it. I have two builds here now that are expecting this same level of power on 93 next week.

I was not trying to be confrontational I hope you can see my point about what I was saying. I keep making points about something or another and then someone says, "Been there done that". it was getting tiring is all.

As I said, there is NO doubt in my mind you can do this exact same thing. I'll be even more honest, I hope you don't. It leaves me a decent market to mess with and I am willing to take the risk in doing it You guys are busy enough! haha

I went and read the post you made in 2004. Yes, that was damn good power back then but we both know how high the power read when we were both using 2wd dynojets with our EVO's then. Not really in the ball park of what we are reading now. I think you'll agree. I remember making 400 whp on the stock turbo back then with **** poor parts compared to what we are both running today.

 

http://forum.aempower.com/forum/inde...ic,1334.0.html

From 2002.

 

I would like to add my thoughts on the subject for what they are worth

I have been tuning Evos daily for 5 years and I find Mr. Buschur's work on the Bad Bish both ground breaking and totally revolutionary.

Every so often someone does something so radical and so cutting edge it changes how others think about a subject.

I have never seen anyone tune an EVO as agressively on pump gas with such success and find it to be a brilliant advancement.

My opinion is that the combination of the closely matched Buschur Parts along with the FP HTA Wheel and Driven Innovations intake manifold have enhanced the VE of the Evo motor to such a degree that the motor is able to be tuned to a much higher condition on pump gas.

I know this becuase I have experienced tuning thousands of Evos on the same pump gas to the point of knock and seen that the limit is no where near the kind of boost and power level of the Bad Bish car is making - simple FACTS.

There is no magic in tuning its a rather simple process - fuel and timing and a few other minor things.

I give credit to Buschur, FP and Driven Innovations for their work in making parts which enhanced the 4G63.

Also due credit must be given to David Buschur for knowing what he is doing and having the confidence in what he is doing to send out a high profile customer car with this level of tune into the real world.

In life those who take risks often are rewarded with great results.

Again, kudos to Master Buschur for staying on top of the scene.

Al


PS - the thread that Martin cited above was claiming 470 whp on pump gas at 25 psi and then 505 whp with WATER INJECTION. Clearly that is a totally different subject that pure pump gas.

Query to anyone willing to entertain a rational conversation is why wouldn't a guy like the Bad Bish consider a quality alcohol injection system as a additional means of saftey and to provide an additional margin for the event of a bad tank of gas?