So, you didn't answer my questions. Is your car a stroker and let's see a dyno graph because that out does any 2 liter I've seen and that includes Buschur's. I'll make a bet with you. I'll bet in two years, it will be generally accepted that for anything 35R and smaller, TS will give equal power with better spool to a comparably sized open volute. I'll put $100 on it if you're willing.

TS has been very successful on OEM applications and is the accepted norm, it's only a matter of time until the aftermarket follows.

Really the screen name is for manifestation....

I just thought the TS 35R would be able to do more.....no biggie it is what it is.

I dont feel this is a valid argument. What is ideal for OEM is not necessarily ideal for the performance market. The biggest reason for using divided housing on OEM is to separate exhaust pulses that are poorly timed due to the cast manifold. Gains for separating the exhaust pulses on a properly designed equal length manifold are going to be minimal at best. Trading these minimal gains for the added restriction of the divided housing is not worth it IMO. Add the cost premium to the equation and...........

Very valid point.

In your opinion, what would be the ideal way to test the divided housing versus an open housing?

Make two manifolds as identical as possible but one of them as a true twinscroll (separate wastegates). I don't think there are enough off the shelf t3 twinscroll housings, so I would do it with a t4. Then grab a few different sizes of exhaust housings for both the open volute and twinscroll manifold. Then install each of them and tune the car with as similar of AFR's and ignition advance methodologies as possible (this will also show whether a certain setup will allow a bit more ignition advance or not - however I don't think it will play to big a role). I would do this for a few different desired boost curves (say low, medium and high boost) for each housing and manifold type making sure to keep the curves as similar as possible. This should allow you to see how the different sizes compare (from a boost onset standpoint) and then how the divided volute affects the top end. However, this would be a very time consuming and probably cost prohibitive experiment - not to mention it would be a bit tough to normalize the testing variables (weather, IAT's, coolant temps, etc...) but if you were willing to spend enough time and energy into equalizing the playing field, I'm sure the results would be very interesting. You've got great mechanics and tuners, it would be a cool project to undertake - please do it!!!!!!!

Guys i know people are questioning the validity of TS, I strongly believe with the availability of TS housings coming out, there will be further development from companies such as Full Race and others. Its good for the turbo community in general for such developments to give the consumer better options depending on there usage ie drag, roadrace, autox etc. People get so stuck on peak numbers, they forget about power under the curve. I am just a little guy, putting out initial numbers with minimal mods, if anything im just excited to see the twin scroll theory work first hand. Also there are other benefits to TS such as lower combustion pressure and excellent scavenging during valve overlap periods. I will document my progress throughout the upgrades and share it. I dont have a huge budget so busting the "pump gas record" or " highest horsepower evo" isnt the goal.

Attached current setup pics

u r a little guy...hehe, you need to let me drive it again so I can really let it loose on a longer stretch...even better...once I get a setup we can trade so I can drive it while you install the turbo etc...then we go dynotune it

It only proves that a car with a short list of upgrades and TS setup to be capable of performing as well or better at WOT as another car with far more time and effort invested.


Which should always be expected if the engine isn't making enough power (exh pressure) to exploit the potential benefit of the larger housing.



Having driven both .63 A/R open T3 and .78 A/R TS 3076R cars, the difference between the two is so vivid in fact, that a claim that the .78 TS lost spool is a huge red flag indicating an external issue. Someone without the benefit of prior first-hand experience in the difference between these two housings however wouldn't necessarily know this.

In any case, perhaps your sample size should be a bit larger before passing judgment. After all, I don't see anyone here who actually drives a TS setup complaining.


The biggest reason is because Mitsubishi engineers realize that 4 cyl engines benefit substantially from TS due to the fact that a rather lengthy 180 deg separates each firing event. The manifold design is irrelevant.

RA, I respect you're opinion, but have to agree with AMS and others on this until it's proven otherwise. I agree 100% TS will spool faster and feel better, but I don't agree that maximum power will be a same in a 35R scenario and possibly even a 3065 too.

Since no one seems to run these turbos over 25-26psi on pump gas I'll just have to wait for someone to turn the wick up to 36-40psi and see what they can do.

Jasil,
I think your approach is very sensible. I'm not spending any money on TS until I see the same results you want to see, ok maybe not 40 psi. My problem is there is very little information out there and people are very quick to dismiss TS as a "fad". Yet, every OEM turboed car uses TS and obviously millions of dollars have been spent researching this by both the OEMs and turbo manufacturers, so let's slow down a little until we have some real world data available to reach an opinion.

Remember, turbo kits have been out since before the car came to the US in 03 and not many people have figured out how to run big boost on pump and that's after 5 years of tuning a whole bunch of cars and selling who knows how many turbo kits. There are very few of TS kits out there, but give it time and you'll see more results. Check out DTM's results with their T3 mani. It's very impressive at low boost and they're planning on cranking it up.

In a matter of time, we'll all know if TS is an improvement over an open volute. I really expect for anything 35R and smaller, the max whp difference will be negligible with the very impressive spool up we've seen already. You'll end up with much more area under the curve and better transitory response. Your car will be more fun to drive and perform better at the track.

Robert

my $0.02

-twinscroll has the ability to offer MORE peak power. Everyone who has their own theory on why its a restriction doesnt fully comprehend the actual advantages twinscroll offers. Its not just about spool and response.

-IMHO the 3065 is not a good turbocharger design. i do not think it would work well as a twinscroll, and i definitely dont think it works well as a singlescroll. I feel this is one of the worst turbos out there.


i dont think "we'll all know" anything, ever. There will always be arguments from both sides of the fence... twinscroll works, twinscroll doesnt work. some people dont like it, some do. i have never seen a forum freak out like this one tho, and i really have a hard time swallowing the borgwarner comp wheel/garrett turbine + CHRA HTA3xR combo that everyone seems to be going nuts about, really makes no sense to me

Why do you think that?

+1 on this. Geoff why do you have a hard time with this. While initial results are just coming on the HTA37R, Buschur & AMS have show earlier spool & at least the same top-end with the HTA35R.

What's so hard to believe about this. I would think this is a great thing & you could add the HTA option to a 35R twin scrool to try & get the best of both worlds......

Thoughts?

I've never doubted that twin-scroll is the way to go, especially for a street-driven setup. Just wish I had the ca$h to make the switch.

The HTA stuff looks very good based on the posted dyno charts. In lieu of switching to a TS setup, the HTA 35r is very tempting ... although I have to admit that I am really damned happy with how my 50 trim is working on the new setup (AEM).

l8r)

So if you used a larger ar on the Full-Race gt35r twin scroll setup to match closer to the top end of the single scroll gt35r, The spool up would only be like 300rpms sooner, for the Full-Race gt35r twinscroll kit for whatever amount of power it produces? Does either gt35r kit compared in the graph above have any sort of jet coating or heat wrap?