An interesting dyno comparison of two EVO's
that last comment about when you get your car to do this with this then lets talk is something I would think an 18 year old with a honda would say. Sorry man thats just not cool ,AFI gave you compliments he was just trying to understand how it all works for you-JOEYD
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It has been posted that the earlier spool and power under the curve compared to the black car, the white car looks more enticing and shows more potential.
However everyone knows the benefits of a larger turbo come with sacrifice. Since most poeple use their cars for the street and may not have the supporting mods a 35 or this new turbo will be the best turbo to go with and build around it.
I still beleive for an all out drag car the larger setup is probably the best choice.
The other thing that gets to me is that i dont really beleive the difference is that large between the two cars. Although the test window may be 3K to 9K if the dyno operater goes wot on the white car at the lowest possible rpm and the black car at a higher rpm (lets say 3K-3.5K) that will easily cause the difference seen in the charts. Especially on a load bearing dyno.
I don't think this was done intentionally but it is very possible or just a good marketing campaign for the new turbo (or w/e turbo is in question, i cant keep up with all these new turbos).
I also hope the black car has more to push with the turbo that is in the dyno chart.
My .02 good luck with your 8 sec quest.
Last edited by Jean; Sep 16, 2008 at 04:38 PM.
Like I said before... David, I think if you take your Turbo setup and you intake manifold/tb and put them on the black car... that car would haul ***... however i think that you guys should slap the 42 on the car and letter eat. I still think though that you should get rid of the hks and slap on the wilson v2
Actually, this is what I took offense to that jesse@afi wrote:
"You can't make an assumption like that...First of all the .84ar housing is too small. Needs a 1.06 or bigger atleast. There has to be something else going on. Our Honda, yes i know its not a 4g63 but its a 2.0L with a smaller stroke than 4g63's has peak tq @ 6800rpm's with a gt4202r. The only reason im making a comparison is we had a gt35r on the car awhile back (open housing t3 .82ar) and it didn't spool as fast as David's rs or have anywheres near that midrange, so the spool isn't coming from the difference in engines. "
That is what I responded to about the .84 being too small. I've had multiple housings on the car. If I took you telling me I was wrong with my .84 housing then, I apologize, but reading it again it seems as though I am being told my combination is wrong.
"You can't make an assumption like that...First of all the .84ar housing is too small. Needs a 1.06 or bigger atleast. There has to be something else going on. Our Honda, yes i know its not a 4g63 but its a 2.0L with a smaller stroke than 4g63's has peak tq @ 6800rpm's with a gt4202r. The only reason im making a comparison is we had a gt35r on the car awhile back (open housing t3 .82ar) and it didn't spool as fast as David's rs or have anywheres near that midrange, so the spool isn't coming from the difference in engines. "
That is what I responded to about the .84 being too small. I've had multiple housings on the car. If I took you telling me I was wrong with my .84 housing then, I apologize, but reading it again it seems as though I am being told my combination is wrong.
Dave don't underestimate how your testing and involvement in the community has helped your business. Running 8's in a street car, producing customer cars running 10's on pump, etc is very important no doubt. But I really think you are underestimating how your shared, open, no nonsense approach has endeared you to enthusiasts.
I surely agree.
Oh boy.............the pulls were both started at the same time, you can clearl see that by the starting point on the RPM. Both cars were at WOT at 2500 rpm and the dyno started measuring at 3,000 rpm. You must be right though, I am known for making marketing campains and not results.............
I think a few people need reminded that our black car with that dyno chart actually ran 8.96 at 166 mph, that is on a SMALL turbo. That is the 3rd highest MPH of any EVO in the states regardless of turbo size and the #1 spot is held by our car with the 42r on it. It is also only 1 of three state side EVO's to have gone 8's and on by far the smallest turbo.........it's all a big gimmick.....yeah that's it.
I think a few people need reminded that our black car with that dyno chart actually ran 8.96 at 166 mph, that is on a SMALL turbo. That is the 3rd highest MPH of any EVO in the states regardless of turbo size and the #1 spot is held by our car with the 42r on it. It is also only 1 of three state side EVO's to have gone 8's and on by far the smallest turbo.........it's all a big gimmick.....yeah that's it.
I do understand that my testing helps us greatly. I guess what I meant to say is I am going to be more secretive about what exactly we are doing. Like in the case of the new turbo, just listing the specs and giving everyone the ability to call any shop to buy it is over and done with. Let these dead beats do their own testing and find parts that actually work. A lot of the shops that are supporting the EVO market don't own an EVO, don't set records, don't race and some have actually used test results from vendors who do those things to compare what their knock off parts will produce. ENOUGH of it already.
We are working on something else right now that is going to be just completely bad ***. As a matter of fact, we are going to actually work Saturday this week to build and develop it. It will be the next big thing for the EVO. I am freaking excited about it and cannot wait for the day I can make the post with dyno charts, detailed pictures, 1/4 mile times etc. It is going to be a big effort from multiple people we work with already. I'm completely geeked. It will get complete information put out when it's done because there will be only one place to get it, us
The weeks to come are going to be awesome.
We are working on something else right now that is going to be just completely bad ***. As a matter of fact, we are going to actually work Saturday this week to build and develop it. It will be the next big thing for the EVO. I am freaking excited about it and cannot wait for the day I can make the post with dyno charts, detailed pictures, 1/4 mile times etc. It is going to be a big effort from multiple people we work with already. I'm completely geeked. It will get complete information put out when it's done because there will be only one place to get it, us
The weeks to come are going to be awesome.
Oh man David
That is music to my ears right there. I have a few HTA35R and 37R cars running around the area , and blown V-8's that I must dominate. I just cannot be handed a street loss cant happen.
So this news of the latest and greatest have me feelin like I hold the keys to the bank hahaha
Patience man Patience
That is music to my ears right there. I have a few HTA35R and 37R cars running around the area , and blown V-8's that I must dominate. I just cannot be handed a street loss cant happen.
So this news of the latest and greatest have me feelin like I hold the keys to the bank hahaha
Patience man Patience
Last edited by steelcityevo8; Sep 16, 2008 at 05:43 PM.
jesse, you are incorrect in so many ways, I can't even start on it. I have logs of the turbo with larger divided turbine housings, I can assure you, you are WAY out there in your assumptions of what works and doesn't.
I put my turbo on the black car actually. I used a .68 T4 housing, it was HORRIBLE in that housing. The HTA88 made about 100 more whp than the HTA35r in the T4 configuration.
There will be no dyno sheets posted or more information given out on the turbo. This thread isn't so much about that turbo as it is about the difference in the T4 divided housing and the T3 housing and just the major difference in the power of both cars down low.
I dyno'd the HTA35r again today and I should have used that for reference as this isn't a thread to push the FS635 or anything else. Just something I found very interesting and wanted to share it.
The black car is substantially lighter than the RS. I don't want to give out the specifics because everyone else with a gutted tin can lies about the weight, so I'll just shut my mouth about ours haha
I put my turbo on the black car actually. I used a .68 T4 housing, it was HORRIBLE in that housing. The HTA88 made about 100 more whp than the HTA35r in the T4 configuration.
There will be no dyno sheets posted or more information given out on the turbo. This thread isn't so much about that turbo as it is about the difference in the T4 divided housing and the T3 housing and just the major difference in the power of both cars down low.
I dyno'd the HTA35r again today and I should have used that for reference as this isn't a thread to push the FS635 or anything else. Just something I found very interesting and wanted to share it.
The black car is substantially lighter than the RS. I don't want to give out the specifics because everyone else with a gutted tin can lies about the weight, so I'll just shut my mouth about ours
hahaWould you mind trying the FS635 in the same housing to see what happens?
Oh boy.............the pulls were both started at the same time, you can clearl see that by the starting point on the RPM. Both cars were at WOT at 2500 rpm and the dyno started measuring at 3,000 rpm. You must be right though, I am known for making marketing campains and not results.............
I think a few people need reminded that our black car with that dyno chart actually ran 8.96 at 166 mph, that is on a SMALL turbo. That is the 3rd highest MPH of any EVO in the states regardless of turbo size and the #1 spot is held by our car with the 42r on it. It is also only 1 of three state side EVO's to have gone 8's and on by far the smallest turbo.........it's all a big gimmick.....yeah that's it.
I think a few people need reminded that our black car with that dyno chart actually ran 8.96 at 166 mph, that is on a SMALL turbo. That is the 3rd highest MPH of any EVO in the states regardless of turbo size and the #1 spot is held by our car with the 42r on it. It is also only 1 of three state side EVO's to have gone 8's and on by far the smallest turbo.........it's all a big gimmick.....yeah that's it.
I did not mention anything about "marketing campaigns and not results" or "gimmicks", i just stated that it maybe a sales tactic to push "X" turbo. Nothing on the background of your company or your ethichs or w/e.
By your defensive I already got my answer.
No i dont think anyone needs to be reminded of anything - you already do a great job of that. It more sounds like you are reminding yourself. A little humility never hurt anyone btw.
Last edited by Jean; Sep 16, 2008 at 06:00 PM.
I do understand that my testing helps us greatly. I guess what I meant to say is I am going to be more secretive about what exactly we are doing. Like in the case of the new turbo, just listing the specs and giving everyone the ability to call any shop to buy it is over and done with. Let these dead beats do their own testing and find parts that actually work. A lot of the shops that are supporting the EVO market don't own an EVO, don't set records, don't race and some have actually used test results from vendors who do those things to compare what their knock off parts will produce. ENOUGH of it already.
We are working on something else right now that is going to be just completely bad ***. As a matter of fact, we are going to actually work Saturday this week to build and develop it. It will be the next big thing for the EVO. I am freaking excited about it and cannot wait for the day I can make the post with dyno charts, detailed pictures, 1/4 mile times etc. It is going to be a big effort from multiple people we work with already. I'm completely geeked. It will get complete information put out when it's done because there will be only one place to get it, us
The weeks to come are going to be awesome.
We are working on something else right now that is going to be just completely bad ***. As a matter of fact, we are going to actually work Saturday this week to build and develop it. It will be the next big thing for the EVO. I am freaking excited about it and cannot wait for the day I can make the post with dyno charts, detailed pictures, 1/4 mile times etc. It is going to be a big effort from multiple people we work with already. I'm completely geeked. It will get complete information put out when it's done because there will be only one place to get it, us
The weeks to come are going to be awesome.
I think that somes it up pretty good to be honest.. I didnt see anyone jump on AMS back about the AMS850r that is a precision turbo built to their specs..
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Geeze David. By reading through this thread you'd think that everyone had an 8 sec evo. Mr. Buschur has done so much trial and error, and testing and then some. There are alot of disagreements in this field (which thinking differently helps us go faster), but by means of turbo size.....As if he hasn't tried it.
As for the RS as a daily....
Ive never personally seen this car driving around, but that power curve is definitely suitable for street driving. Even more so in my opinion, when compared to the drag car.
As for the RS as a daily....
Ive never personally seen this car driving around, but that power curve is definitely suitable for street driving. Even more so in my opinion, when compared to the drag car.
Dave don't underestimate how your testing and involvement in the community has helped your business. Running 8's in a street car, producing customer cars running 10's on pump, etc is very important no doubt. But I really think you are underestimating how your shared, open, no nonsense approach has endeared you to enthusiasts.
My car is on the dyno this morning. Probably will be all week long actually, I am doing some testing to see where I can find another 30 whp or so to drop the car into the 8's. I am speaking of my RS that just went 9.11 at 155 mph.
The car was fresh off the track last week so I wanted to get a baseline pull of where the hp was just like I ran it, no changes. I knew the boost was up higher than I had been dyno'ing it and wanted to know exactly what it had for power at 40 psi.
I loaded the car, did two pulls, they were identical, marked my logs and was going to move on. I then got curious how my power curve stacked up against the our black drag EVO.
It is quite interesting.
Below you will find the dyno results from the two cars. The RS is equipped with a "35r" in a .82 T3 turbine housing. Same exact engines in both cars, same head. The black car is using a few other parts to increase the top end and usable RPM because of the GT42r we had on the car. There are some other small differences but the dyno sheet is what is most interesting.
The black car is equipped with an HTA88/Ptrim with a T4 divided twin scroll header/turbine housing, .84 a/r.
My RS made 648 whp/511 ft lbs of torque at 41 psi.
The black car made 665 whp/458 ft lbs of torque at somewhere around 46 psi, I can't find the log.
For reference both cars, when shifted at 9,000 rpm fall to about 7,000 rpm after the shift. So for drag racing the usable range on both cars are from 7,000-9,000 rpm, give or take a little.
With this turbo combination on the black car the car ran a best of 8.96 at 166 mph.
Here is the dyno sheet comparing the two:
The power up top is very-very close. The low to mid range power is stupid different. Look at 5400 rpm, the power difference is about 250 whp and the torque is about 230 ft lbs.
Crazy stuff.
The car was fresh off the track last week so I wanted to get a baseline pull of where the hp was just like I ran it, no changes. I knew the boost was up higher than I had been dyno'ing it and wanted to know exactly what it had for power at 40 psi.
I loaded the car, did two pulls, they were identical, marked my logs and was going to move on. I then got curious how my power curve stacked up against the our black drag EVO.
It is quite interesting.
Below you will find the dyno results from the two cars. The RS is equipped with a "35r" in a .82 T3 turbine housing. Same exact engines in both cars, same head. The black car is using a few other parts to increase the top end and usable RPM because of the GT42r we had on the car. There are some other small differences but the dyno sheet is what is most interesting.
The black car is equipped with an HTA88/Ptrim with a T4 divided twin scroll header/turbine housing, .84 a/r.
My RS made 648 whp/511 ft lbs of torque at 41 psi.
The black car made 665 whp/458 ft lbs of torque at somewhere around 46 psi, I can't find the log.
For reference both cars, when shifted at 9,000 rpm fall to about 7,000 rpm after the shift. So for drag racing the usable range on both cars are from 7,000-9,000 rpm, give or take a little.
With this turbo combination on the black car the car ran a best of 8.96 at 166 mph.
Here is the dyno sheet comparing the two:
The power up top is very-very close. The low to mid range power is stupid different. Look at 5400 rpm, the power difference is about 250 whp and the torque is about 230 ft lbs.
Crazy stuff.
A few times we have done wot gear to gear shifting on our dyno for diagnostic and comparision purposes
It would be interesting to have the dyno comparison you posted above or between similar cars with a 2 - 3 drag style shift and see the difference in how each package responds to the shift and how quickly the TQ curve reacts
The loading style of dyno operation is not how the cars are used on the track or street and I feel the response and TQ level is more signififcantly effected when shifting between the two turbos
Al