Aluminum rods
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 11,406
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From: Northwest
There are cyclical fatigue charts available for many aluminum alloys (particularly aerospace alloys) that can give a good idea of how long you could expect these rods to last. The heat cycleing adds a whole other element to it, but it would at least give you an idea of what to expect.
Aluminum doesn't have a fatigue limit. Weither its 1 million cycles or 10 million cycles, aluminum WILL fail eventually even if it was never overloaded. This isn't something cooked up by old school domestic guys, it's got thousands of charts and tests behind it.
The statement of 100 passes being harder on aluminum rods then 15,000 miles of street use is not necessarily correct. It all depends on the alloy and the loads seen. Some alloys cannot handle huge loads (2024 aluminum for example), but will resist cracking for MANY more cycles, where other alloys can handle huge loads but do not like to be cycled nearly as much (most 7000 series aluminum).
Hell, some aluminum will crack just sitting on a shelf from residual stresses left from machining (7075).
Aluminum doesn't have a fatigue limit. Weither its 1 million cycles or 10 million cycles, aluminum WILL fail eventually even if it was never overloaded. This isn't something cooked up by old school domestic guys, it's got thousands of charts and tests behind it.
The statement of 100 passes being harder on aluminum rods then 15,000 miles of street use is not necessarily correct. It all depends on the alloy and the loads seen. Some alloys cannot handle huge loads (2024 aluminum for example), but will resist cracking for MANY more cycles, where other alloys can handle huge loads but do not like to be cycled nearly as much (most 7000 series aluminum).
Hell, some aluminum will crack just sitting on a shelf from residual stresses left from machining (7075).
Another thing i would worry about also in a all Aluminum rod would be the threads. First time torqued is fine..but what after reuse. In some Rotax engines i have worked on in the past we used a Time Sert (http://www.timesert.com/) on areas that were repeatedly re-torqued on aluminum heads. The timesert would last alot longer and less prone to Double-Threading/Stripping then just the bare Aluminum.
Evolving Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 201
Likes: 9
From: NorCal
I know this thread is old, but I was wondering if there was anymore information on Lucas' Aluminum Rod motor.
I plan on running a 2.0L Long Rod in my DSM and I've been leaning hard on BME 156mm Aluminum Rods.
I just have to call them and ask them if they can make me a set.
I believe most aluminum rods are made from 7075-T6 aluminum plate and just cookie cut.
BME has perfected the process and has the best aluminum rods on the market.
I plan on running a 2.0L Long Rod in my DSM and I've been leaning hard on BME 156mm Aluminum Rods.
I just have to call them and ask them if they can make me a set.
I believe most aluminum rods are made from 7075-T6 aluminum plate and just cookie cut.
BME has perfected the process and has the best aluminum rods on the market.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 11,406
Likes: 78
From: Northwest
More information as far as...? As of the last post I made in this thread we have done 5 more R&R motors. There are varying mileages on all of them and mine is finally unF'd and ready to assemble (Darn 162mm rods anyway). Luke's motor is currently getting reassembled (today in fact) since we lost a block earlier in the year. It is using the same rods it has had in it, getting an oil cooler again, 11:1 pistons still, and we arent really expecting anything different than what we already know.
BME and R&R have very similar designs and properties. I wont diss on the product, but I will point out that most of the highest horsepower 4G63s in the world use R&R. The only 6 second 4G does
BME and R&R have very similar designs and properties. I wont diss on the product, but I will point out that most of the highest horsepower 4G63s in the world use R&R. The only 6 second 4G does
I'd be very interested in knowing the material used. I'd be pretty surprised if all of them are 7075-T6. I have a feeling the rods that hold up long term are NOT 7075.
I think I'd plan on doing some NDI work on aluminum rods. The only question is, when do you check them out. It might be more inexpensive just to replace them at certain intervals then to get them inspected though.
I've been watching some fatigue testing videos that use a microscope to look at the microstructure of the materials as the sample is tested. AMAZING what goes on at the micro level that the naked eye could never catch. Truly AMAZING.
Careful inspection of some 15k mile rods would probably give a very good idea of how well they are holding up and how long you could expect them to last.
I think I'd plan on doing some NDI work on aluminum rods. The only question is, when do you check them out. It might be more inexpensive just to replace them at certain intervals then to get them inspected though.
I've been watching some fatigue testing videos that use a microscope to look at the microstructure of the materials as the sample is tested. AMAZING what goes on at the micro level that the naked eye could never catch. Truly AMAZING.
Careful inspection of some 15k mile rods would probably give a very good idea of how well they are holding up and how long you could expect them to last.
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From: Eau Claire, MI
Evolving Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 201
Likes: 9
From: NorCal
Thanks for the info guys.
I'm so very glad the R&R rods are kicking *** for you guys.
I'm going to go with BME Rods.
There's something to say about all of the information on this page in the following link that intrigued me into the BME rods.
http://www.bmeltd.com/rods.htm
I contacted BME today and spoke with Bill Miller himself, he's a great guy.
I didn't ask to speak to him, the receptionist answered, and I asked, "I'd like to speak to someone about a custom set of connecting rods." few seconds passed, and I hear, "This is Bill." I was like, "As in Bill Miller?" He said, "What can I do for you?" I was in a semi state of shock. I don't know why, but after reading every page on their site, it was like I was personally speaking to a well known celebrity or someone with a ton of influence in the motorsports industry.
I guess it would be like talking to Marco, or John Shepherd...
Anyway, I got a quote for a set of 156mm rods for my 2.0L Long Rod build, and let's just say, the price surprised the hell out of me.
I'm so very glad the R&R rods are kicking *** for you guys.
I'm going to go with BME Rods.
There's something to say about all of the information on this page in the following link that intrigued me into the BME rods.
http://www.bmeltd.com/rods.htm
I contacted BME today and spoke with Bill Miller himself, he's a great guy.
I didn't ask to speak to him, the receptionist answered, and I asked, "I'd like to speak to someone about a custom set of connecting rods." few seconds passed, and I hear, "This is Bill." I was like, "As in Bill Miller?" He said, "What can I do for you?" I was in a semi state of shock. I don't know why, but after reading every page on their site, it was like I was personally speaking to a well known celebrity or someone with a ton of influence in the motorsports industry.
I guess it would be like talking to Marco, or John Shepherd...
Anyway, I got a quote for a set of 156mm rods for my 2.0L Long Rod build, and let's just say, the price surprised the hell out of me.
Last edited by Strm Trpr; Sep 2, 2009 at 09:35 PM.
Thanks for the info guys.
I'm so very glad the R&R rods are kicking *** for you guys.
I'm going to go with BME Rods.
http://www.bmeltd.com/rods.htm
I contacted BME today and spoke with Bill Miller himself, he's a great guy.
I got a quote for a set of 156mm rods for my 2.0L Long Rod build, and let's just say, the price surprised the hell out of me.
I'm so very glad the R&R rods are kicking *** for you guys.
I'm going to go with BME Rods.
http://www.bmeltd.com/rods.htm
I contacted BME today and spoke with Bill Miller himself, he's a great guy.
I got a quote for a set of 156mm rods for my 2.0L Long Rod build, and let's just say, the price surprised the hell out of me.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 11,406
Likes: 78
From: Northwest
Anyone that wants to test them for free and is capable of doing the correct NDI testing is welcome to test some of the 18K mile rods we used without an oil cooler.
These are (as stated elsewhere in the thread) are R&R rods that we are a master distributor for. Our pricing has changed since the initial post concerning the rods but we only sell them one way...Rau strength with a standard 22mm pin between 150 and 162mm long.
The BME link is most insightful. It echos alot of what has been posted, that most of the negatives that people cling to date back a ways it seems.
aaron
These are (as stated elsewhere in the thread) are R&R rods that we are a master distributor for. Our pricing has changed since the initial post concerning the rods but we only sell them one way...Rau strength with a standard 22mm pin between 150 and 162mm long.
The BME link is most insightful. It echos alot of what has been posted, that most of the negatives that people cling to date back a ways it seems.
aaron
I'd be very interested in knowing the material used. I'd be pretty surprised if all of them are 7075-T6. I have a feeling the rods that hold up long term are NOT 7075.
I think I'd plan on doing some NDI work on aluminum rods. The only question is, when do you check them out. It might be more inexpensive just to replace them at certain intervals then to get them inspected though.
I've been watching some fatigue testing videos that use a microscope to look at the microstructure of the materials as the sample is tested. AMAZING what goes on at the micro level that the naked eye could never catch. Truly AMAZING.
Careful inspection of some 15k mile rods would probably give a very good idea of how well they are holding up and how long you could expect them to last.
I think I'd plan on doing some NDI work on aluminum rods. The only question is, when do you check them out. It might be more inexpensive just to replace them at certain intervals then to get them inspected though.
I've been watching some fatigue testing videos that use a microscope to look at the microstructure of the materials as the sample is tested. AMAZING what goes on at the micro level that the naked eye could never catch. Truly AMAZING.
Careful inspection of some 15k mile rods would probably give a very good idea of how well they are holding up and how long you could expect them to last.
Evolving Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 201
Likes: 9
From: NorCal
Yeah, I was pretty impressed by that for sure.
That and all the information BME has on there site really sealed the deal for me.
The ability to research a product to almost no end and know you're getting what you pay for is a really a great sales strategy.
So this is my build and will be getting pieced together for a March 2010 first firing:
156mm BME Rods
2.3L Manley Stroker Pistons
New Lightened/Balanced OEM Crank
Fluidampr
OEM Head w/casting flash removed and gasket matched
FP Bee Hives
Kelford 272's
Manley Valves
Extrude Honed Intake Manifold
Ported TB
Deciding on which turbo to run is the easy part.... pretty much anything FP HTA will do.
Should rev like a streetbike and get to 9k in a hurry.
Right on Aaron, thanks for taking the time to have a look.
That and all the information BME has on there site really sealed the deal for me.
The ability to research a product to almost no end and know you're getting what you pay for is a really a great sales strategy.
So this is my build and will be getting pieced together for a March 2010 first firing:
156mm BME Rods
2.3L Manley Stroker Pistons
New Lightened/Balanced OEM Crank
Fluidampr
OEM Head w/casting flash removed and gasket matched
FP Bee Hives
Kelford 272's
Manley Valves
Extrude Honed Intake Manifold
Ported TB
Deciding on which turbo to run is the easy part.... pretty much anything FP HTA will do.
Should rev like a streetbike and get to 9k in a hurry.
Right on Aaron, thanks for taking the time to have a look.
Last edited by Strm Trpr; Sep 2, 2009 at 10:42 PM.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 11,406
Likes: 78
From: Northwest
Those pistons are going to have less than a 23mm compression height and you'll have to clearance the block both for the stroker and the aluminum rods. I offer the advice as someone who has had to fight his way to make a 94mm/162 aluminum rod motor in a 4G64 work, that you might want to re-examine your goal on that motor. You might be able to get it to work in a 64 block barely, but a 6 bolt/early 7 bolt is going to be interesting. Good luck though.
Back in the day it was said to try to not to do a lot of deceleration on aluminum rods. Is this still the case or would you be able to use these for road racing or is that still a bad idea??
I do a little bit of everything autocross, road race, and drag, and been hanging out with some supra friends that do "off highway" really high speed pulls. Do you see any problems here? thanks
I do a little bit of everything autocross, road race, and drag, and been hanging out with some supra friends that do "off highway" really high speed pulls. Do you see any problems here? thanks
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 11,406
Likes: 78
From: Northwest
Autocross and Drag dont seem to be an issue. Road Racing is something we are going to explore with large oil coolers to make sure they stay in the lower 200* range. Everything I have been able to find and talk to Mike @ R&R about says they will still work. Alloy rods have always been the top level rod in Sprint cars and they'll run 30 laps with minimal airflow/cooling compared to a fully setup circuit car. The other thing I have been wondering but havent found out is what rods are the mainstay in NASCAR motors.
If you're not using a 4G64 block, I smell a heap of trouble in the making.
AFAIK, they use steel rods.
AFAIK, they use steel rods.
Autocross and Drag dont seem to be an issue. Road Racing is something we are going to explore with large oil coolers to make sure they stay in the lower 200* range. Everything I have been able to find and talk to Mike @ R&R about says they will still work. Alloy rods have always been the top level rod in Sprint cars and they'll run 30 laps with minimal airflow/cooling compared to a fully setup circuit car. The other thing I have been wondering but havent found out is what rods are the mainstay in NASCAR motors.