I have no interest in searcing for proven to be false information,But thanks for the suggestion.

 

ECU logger... interesting... Does it show amount of air and
temperature just before enters the t-body??

Which logger did you use? Will it work with EVO?

Thanks,

 

Then don't ask me to do it for you. Way to be an asshat btw.

 

It logs all monitored parameters received by the ECU. Im sure Mike will offer a EVO version in the very near future. you can check it out at www.pocketlogger.com its an invaluable tuning tool in the DSM community.


For example, when I tuning my car. I log rpm, knock and timing advance. I make 3rd gear WOT pulls and keep an eye on my wide band mounted on the steering column. At the end of the pull, I pull over and review the logs and make fuel corrections based on knock some and a/f data displayed by my wide band during the run.

If the logger was wired into my wideband, and could reference the a/f data with the logger. That would be the ultimate tuning tool. the only way to do this to date is with a standalone

 

I dont recall asking you to do anything. You made an incorrect assumption and i corrected you. No additonal research on my part is required. If you and you're friends choose to disagree. thats you're choice.

 

Man you are one pompous ***. I am going to call you out on this, I want to see some of your data with a CAI (presumably what you are running now, with the filter behind the bumper) and a short ram (with the filter element shielded in the engine bay).

Specifically I want to see O2 levels and temps after the MAF sensor (your intake pipe) and temps before & after the I/C (optimally right before/after the core inlet/outlet). Also if you can, I'd like to see what your MAF is reading in each scenario. Don't forget current exterior temps and humidity levels. Your 3rd gear wot test should do nicely.

Can you provide such data or not? Or is this too piddly of a project for you to fool with seeing as how you've already decided what's best? I myself do not make any stark claims, I only know what I've read, so your information could disuade me from believing what IS actually the general consensus around here, believe it or not.

 

The tests I did were done a very long time ago. However its fairly common knowledge that lowering the intake temperature will result in lower charged air temps after the intercooler.

Honesty I don't feel obligated to prove much of anything to you. To be quite honest, I can live with the fact that you doubt this very well known fact.

As far as my current setup. In do not use a mass air meter of any kind. My setup uses the HKS VPC which converts the stock karman vortex meter to a speed density system.

If I were to log intake temps and post the logs. It would show a constant 66*. which is a cloned signal created by the VPC as one if its functions in allowing the removal of the Mass air meter.

You can feel free to As you say call me out. However you further discredit you're limited knowledgeability with further posts on this topic.

 

Good christ your grammar and punctuation skills are laughable.

Thanks for the insult dick, but it phases me not. Since you are unwilling to produce any real data, why not link me/us to an informational page/site which explains what you are attempting (feebly) to put down in words? Or we can just forget the whole thing since you are obviously never going to back your statements up with anything more than "it's common knowledgeability".

 

It appears that you're reading and comprehension is on par with my grammar and punctuation.

Let me try this again.
My logger will not show temperature changes because the VPC sends a constant 66* temperature signal to the ECU.

Don't currently have a mass air meter sorry.

I only log rpm knock and timing advance. Sorry everything is not relevant to tuning.

 

And did your old data just disappear? You're = you are, by the way. Just forget the whole thing, you are apparently not able to present any factual information yourself.

 

I feel like being nice today, happy boosting.

 

Webguy, you and I have had civilized discussions before, so I hope you will listen to me now, please.

I agree fully with Turbo-Weapon, and I can offer proof if you're willing to listen...

It is a simple to prove fact that when you bring cooler air into the intake, the car makes more power. For a simple example, look at dragstrip times at the same altitude in different seasons. In 90 degrees while injesting from hot outside 90 degree air, a stock Evo might run a 13.8@100mph. Go to a 30 degree day, and the times drop and the ETs go up to like 13.4@104mph.

For a more scientific approach, run the car on a dyno. You'll notice that dynos have a correction factor for atmospheric conditions. Its basically a yardstick so you can compare runs on different days.

Take a stock Evo for example that is run at a dyno, lets say TurboXS in Maryland. If you look at *uncorrected* numbers (those that reflect real conditions), you'll notice the power output is significantly lower in the summer. There's a standardized correction that is like "dyno nirvana", which I believe is low humidity in the 60 degree range, but I am uncertain the exact number.

At any rate, the intercooler allows the charge to cool and you to run more boost, but air intake temperatures matter tremendously for power. The thing that is so nice about a sealed factory box is basically what you said in your rain post above. The filter (or more specifically, the charge in this case) is somewhat protected from the hot underhood heat.

Testing as Turbo-Weapon has done has shown an amazingly power robbing jump in intake temperatures with a warm air element, moreso in a warmed up car on hot days. The problem with dynoing these units with the hood open is that you receive a euphoric sense of what the filter is really doing. Remember that the hood is always closed during real driving, and with a fan blowing directly on the element, the car is able to injest much cooler air than it would in real world driving conditions. Proof shown here is from intake temperature logs that shoot way up when the WAI is on the street. The factory airbox is designed to use that funnel to literally "ram" the air that is hitting the hood at speed into the airbox, hence an always flowing direct charge of cool(er) air. The flow increases at speed.

Now diverting the funnel to a WAI would certainly help the WAI's air inlet temps, but when you're racing or coming to a stop, or starting from a slow speed, the underhood air immediately starts "cooking" the filter, ie: causing it to injest very hot underhood air.

The only time you'd want to change the stock airbox in my opinion, is when it cannot flow enough air to accomodate what the engine/turbo need. Of course it is over-engineered, so unless you're kissing 11 second ETs, the stock airbox should be more than enough.

I first came in this thread because I was incredulous that people were pulling the airbox. For even more reason than the hot air, I ESPECIALLY fear your hypothesis that an open box top with a sealed bottom is NOT a good idea when it might rain through the hood slits and collect water into the tract and ultimately hydrolock the motor! Good catch there, man. Not a fun thought there at all.

Now realize that I'm not saying that all WAIs are bad all the time. But when you're exposed to prolonged heat from running the car, or stopped while running and building heat, there is extreme truth to this idea. Realize also that messing with the airsource the MAF sees should require a bit of tuning to zero it in perfectly. You're changing the dynamic of the intake, and therefore effecting the air:fuel ratio a bit.

I hope some of you found this novel to be helpful and that it will bring you deeper into understanding your car.

 

Thank you for the DSMtuners link! Hopefully we can all learn a bit more about our cars today.

 

one can only hope

 

Noize, let me begin by congratulating you on making a coherent, information-filled post. I figured you would actually take the time to make some points rather than professing some unfounded factual information as the proverbial gospel of intake engineering.

Now to get to your points:

1) I completely agree that a cooler intake charge will be denser, therefore it will contain more O2 per cubic cm than a warmer charge at the same altitude under the same barometric conditions and same humidity/exterior temp levels.

2) I understand that obviously there is going to be a difference in the air intake charge temperature before the compressor with a CAI vs. a short RAI when sitting still with no air movement through the front fascia/engine bay.

3) I do believe that a shorter intake system will allow for more top-end breathability, cold or hot air aside.

4) I am not worried about dyno results from such short intakes, it's more about driveability. Specifically I'm talking everyday commuter-type driving, not drag racing or autox'ing. Track driving, however, does qualify as something I am thinking about.

5) I believe replacing the factory air box/filter/flex tubing does offer benefits above and beyond simple air flow quantities: it allows for a smoother, less turbulant and less restricted pull. It is well known that you will likely take a hit in the low-end grunt department, one reason why a lot of auto manufacturers are using extended length intakes for low-end pull, then switching to a shorter less-restrictive intake path (usually via a butterfly valve or something of that nature in the intake tubing itself) for the top-end of the rpm spectrum. Take for example the Honda Prelude, Ford Probe GT, many others...

(As a side note to #5, think of it like you are running. As you start jogging, you begin to breathe more heavily than normal, but as you start running and your heart rate increases 50-70% you begin to take lots of shorter breaths correct?)

6) I suppose temperatures aren't really important here post-turbo because the O2 density will still remain similar, although not exactly the same. Air expands as it is heated obviously, so while your turbo is ingesting cooler, denser air, that air will end up thinning out (as far as O2 saturation is concerned) as it is heated up correct? Therefore as the air passes beyond the compressor side of the turbo, it will be the same (or of similar) temperature as that of a warmer intake charge.

7) The temperature drop from the intercooler would (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong) theoretically allow for more air compression at the end of the intake system. By this I mean that as the compressor is pressurizing the I/C and its piping, the air coming in will build to proper boost (+ pressure) at the specific temperature that the I/C is able to cool the air to. This allows for a denser O2 level at the end of the intake system yes? If so, does it really matter if your intake charge is 20 degrees cooler or warmer? It's blowing by a 1200-1600 degree compressor housing, being pressurized as it passes through the I/C & piping, then arriving at TB. At that point I don't think there is going to be ANY significant difference between a cooler/warmer intake charge in terms of O2 saturation or air temperature (given a static environment, again, with the same environmental conditions; we can't be comparing a cold drag day to a 100+ degree autox event). I could be wrong, but I intend to find out myself. Naturally please refer back to points #2 and #4 if you are thinking, "but a CAI will pull signficantly cooler air at a stand still than a short RAI".

What do you think about these observations?