So I took my airfilter cover off
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From: My name is Ananda Robinson.Stupid people should be killed. i live in Maryland
Originally posted by webguy330i
5) I believe replacing the factory air box/filter/flex tubing does offer benefits above and beyond simple air flow quantities: it allows for a smoother, less turbulant and less restricted pull. It is well known that you will likely take a hit in the low-end grunt department, one reason why a lot of auto manufacturers are using extended length intakes for low-end pull, then switching to a shorter less-restrictive intake path (usually via a butterfly valve or something of that nature in the intake tubing itself) for the top-end of the rpm spectrum. Take for example the Honda Prelude, Ford Probe GT, many others...
What do you think about these observations?
5) I believe replacing the factory air box/filter/flex tubing does offer benefits above and beyond simple air flow quantities: it allows for a smoother, less turbulant and less restricted pull. It is well known that you will likely take a hit in the low-end grunt department, one reason why a lot of auto manufacturers are using extended length intakes for low-end pull, then switching to a shorter less-restrictive intake path (usually via a butterfly valve or something of that nature in the intake tubing itself) for the top-end of the rpm spectrum. Take for example the Honda Prelude, Ford Probe GT, many others...
What do you think about these observations?
Sorry but nothing else comes to mind. the turbos inlet pipe lenght has zero to do with mainfold runner length.
You're correct, 130+ degree under hood temps are much better then ambient air for making HP. I like the running analogy. Next time you go for a run wear a motorcycle helmet
Oh just to comment on your long runner vs short runner intake manifold analogy. I have no idea how that is related to how long the tube is in front of the turbo. Secondly I have a short runner big plenum intake manifold on my dsm. No loss in TQ and it pulls like an animal from 6500 to 8K.You really should consider ending your long winded babbling hugely false baseless posting.
Last edited by Turbo-Weapon; Oct 1, 2003 at 09:12 AM.
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From: My name is Ananda Robinson.Stupid people should be killed. i live in Maryland
Originally posted by webguy330i
BTW if you don't know why a long vs. short intake tube makes a difference in anything, why are you even trying to contribute your worthless drivel to this thread?
BTW if you don't know why a long vs. short intake tube makes a difference in anything, why are you even trying to contribute your worthless drivel to this thread?
While we are on the topic of intake manifold runner length. Using a turbo car for reference. Plenum size will effect spool more so then runner length.
Last edited by Turbo-Weapon; Oct 1, 2003 at 09:21 AM.
Who said anything about an intake manifold??
If you are telling me that the filter pipe length makes no difference before the turbo, then why do people bother with a pipe to begin with? Oh wait that's right, turbulance and volume!
Your weak attempt at pushing my buttons btw isn't working, so save it.
If you are telling me that the filter pipe length makes no difference before the turbo, then why do people bother with a pipe to begin with? Oh wait that's right, turbulance and volume!
Your weak attempt at pushing my buttons btw isn't working, so save it.
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From: My name is Ananda Robinson.Stupid people should be killed. i live in Maryland
Originally posted by webguy330i
You are really good at making an *** out of yourself. I am done combatting your witless posts. Maybe you should see someone about your obvious superiority complex...
You are really good at making an *** out of yourself. I am done combatting your witless posts. Maybe you should see someone about your obvious superiority complex...
Originally posted by webguy330i
Noize, let me begin by congratulating you on making a coherent, information-filled post. I figured you would actually take the time to make some points rather than professing some unfounded factual information as the proverbial gospel of intake engineering.
Now to get to your points:
1) I completely agree that a cooler intake charge will be denser, therefore it will contain more O2 per cubic cm than a warmer charge at the same altitude under the same barometric conditions and same humidity/exterior temp levels.
2) I understand that obviously there is going to be a difference in the air intake charge temperature before the compressor with a CAI vs. a short RAI when sitting still with no air movement through the front fascia/engine bay.
3) I do believe that a shorter intake system will allow for more top-end breathability, cold or hot air aside.
4) I am not worried about dyno results from such short intakes, it's more about driveability. Specifically I'm talking everyday commuter-type driving, not drag racing or autox'ing. Track driving, however, does qualify as something I am thinking about.
5) I believe replacing the factory air box/filter/flex tubing does offer benefits above and beyond simple air flow quantities: it allows for a smoother, less turbulant and less restricted pull. It is well known that you will likely take a hit in the low-end grunt department, one reason why a lot of auto manufacturers are using extended length intakes for low-end pull, then switching to a shorter less-restrictive intake path (usually via a butterfly valve or something of that nature in the intake tubing itself) for the top-end of the rpm spectrum. Take for example the Honda Prelude, Ford Probe GT, many others...
(As a side note to #5, think of it like you are running. As you start jogging, you begin to breathe more heavily than normal, but as you start running and your heart rate increases 50-70% you begin to take lots of shorter breaths correct?)
6) I suppose temperatures aren't really important here post-turbo because the O2 density will still remain similar, although not exactly the same. Air expands as it is heated obviously, so while your turbo is ingesting cooler, denser air, that air will end up thinning out (as far as O2 saturation is concerned) as it is heated up correct? Therefore as the air passes beyond the compressor side of the turbo, it will be the same (or of similar) temperature as that of a warmer intake charge.
7) The temperature drop from the intercooler would (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong) theoretically allow for more air compression at the end of the intake system. By this I mean that as the compressor is pressurizing the I/C and its piping, the air coming in will build to proper boost (+ pressure) at the specific temperature that the I/C is able to cool the air to. This allows for a denser O2 level at the end of the intake system yes? If so, does it really matter if your intake charge is 20 degrees cooler or warmer? It's blowing by a 1200-1600 degree compressor housing, being pressurized as it passes through the I/C & piping, then arriving at TB. At that point I don't think there is going to be ANY significant difference between a cooler/warmer intake charge in terms of O2 saturation or air temperature (given a static environment, again, with the same environmental conditions; we can't be comparing a cold drag day to a 100+ degree autox event). I could be wrong, but I intend to find out myself. Naturally please refer back to points #2 and #4 if you are thinking, "but a CAI will pull signficantly cooler air at a stand still than a short RAI".
What do you think about these observations?
Noize, let me begin by congratulating you on making a coherent, information-filled post. I figured you would actually take the time to make some points rather than professing some unfounded factual information as the proverbial gospel of intake engineering.
Now to get to your points:
1) I completely agree that a cooler intake charge will be denser, therefore it will contain more O2 per cubic cm than a warmer charge at the same altitude under the same barometric conditions and same humidity/exterior temp levels.
2) I understand that obviously there is going to be a difference in the air intake charge temperature before the compressor with a CAI vs. a short RAI when sitting still with no air movement through the front fascia/engine bay.
3) I do believe that a shorter intake system will allow for more top-end breathability, cold or hot air aside.
4) I am not worried about dyno results from such short intakes, it's more about driveability. Specifically I'm talking everyday commuter-type driving, not drag racing or autox'ing. Track driving, however, does qualify as something I am thinking about.
5) I believe replacing the factory air box/filter/flex tubing does offer benefits above and beyond simple air flow quantities: it allows for a smoother, less turbulant and less restricted pull. It is well known that you will likely take a hit in the low-end grunt department, one reason why a lot of auto manufacturers are using extended length intakes for low-end pull, then switching to a shorter less-restrictive intake path (usually via a butterfly valve or something of that nature in the intake tubing itself) for the top-end of the rpm spectrum. Take for example the Honda Prelude, Ford Probe GT, many others...
(As a side note to #5, think of it like you are running. As you start jogging, you begin to breathe more heavily than normal, but as you start running and your heart rate increases 50-70% you begin to take lots of shorter breaths correct?)
6) I suppose temperatures aren't really important here post-turbo because the O2 density will still remain similar, although not exactly the same. Air expands as it is heated obviously, so while your turbo is ingesting cooler, denser air, that air will end up thinning out (as far as O2 saturation is concerned) as it is heated up correct? Therefore as the air passes beyond the compressor side of the turbo, it will be the same (or of similar) temperature as that of a warmer intake charge.
7) The temperature drop from the intercooler would (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong) theoretically allow for more air compression at the end of the intake system. By this I mean that as the compressor is pressurizing the I/C and its piping, the air coming in will build to proper boost (+ pressure) at the specific temperature that the I/C is able to cool the air to. This allows for a denser O2 level at the end of the intake system yes? If so, does it really matter if your intake charge is 20 degrees cooler or warmer? It's blowing by a 1200-1600 degree compressor housing, being pressurized as it passes through the I/C & piping, then arriving at TB. At that point I don't think there is going to be ANY significant difference between a cooler/warmer intake charge in terms of O2 saturation or air temperature (given a static environment, again, with the same environmental conditions; we can't be comparing a cold drag day to a 100+ degree autox event). I could be wrong, but I intend to find out myself. Naturally please refer back to points #2 and #4 if you are thinking, "but a CAI will pull signficantly cooler air at a stand still than a short RAI".
What do you think about these observations?
While you don't like Turbo Weapon's delivery, his opinions on these matters are really in line with mine. If you'll look back, I was pretty shocked about this thread that Deceit started and I definitely came into it with the wrong attitute to gain any support. I just really pissed a lot of people off at first.
Before we jump back into this, I'd ask you to step back from the emotion and drama this thread has had from almost ALL of us and look at motive. Turbo Weapon has had his car aehile, and tested, researched, worked, and proven what mods work for him. IMO, his motive is to help us (4G63/Evo guys) be faster.
Now, onto your observations, mang
..#3) I still think the cooler the air, the better for sure. While I'm definitely not going to go install an AEM cai, with a bigger WAI element, I'd want to be sure it is an protected from underhood air as I could make it. This is why I'd rather just use the factory airbox and maybe add a K&N panel filter inside.
#4) For me, I'll lose a little bit of midrange and low end for a 4500-7500 gain. I don't need full torque potential unless I'm WOT anyway, and I want the power when I upshift and land so high in rpm since this car's gearing is so nice and tight.
#5) As far as turbulance, the honeycomb is never touched, so it does the most there, IMO. True a filter right next to the MAF would in theory allow more air in, but if the air is appreciably hotter (which it is especially at lower speeds), I'll take the factory box all day. Believe me, I WANT a wai to work for my car, but until I see it proven at the track, I'm sticking to the box.
In NA engines, I like your example of the Honda Prelude in here, because I used to have some. Did you know that the Euro R Accord version of the H22 uses a single runner? Also that the Type R (B18C5) uses a single (big) intake runner unlike the GSR and Prelude that have low and high? For all out upper midrange-top end power, the longer single runner is used.
#6&7) This is where we can't seem to come eye to eye. I've honestly offered all the proof I can for colder/denser air everywhere, but especially at injestion. If you disagree with my uncorrected dyno numbers, I can't really offer much more to this part of the discussion.
Noize, no worries. I was 1/2-heartedly hoping this thread would just die. I _could_ respect Turbo-Weapon's assertations had he delivered them in a more pleasant manner, but it's besides the point now. Besides that I still haven't seen any hard evidence supporting his argument. I have none of my own either so it's a moot point.
Yeah the B16 engine also uses a single-length intake runner. Those engines (especially engines outside the US because we are torque-hungry folks) are built for top-end performance. IIRC Comptech actually sold an OEM intake replacement which utilized a resonator box (!!) and everything with 2 intake runners for the B16, specifically to help out its wimpy 98 ft-lbs to the wheels max.
Regarding cooler/denser air, let's just agree to disagree for now. I agree that it's better to be cooler and denser, how's that? I am just not certain on the delivery of said cooler/denser air and how the intake tract affects those temps/densities.
I am basically saying that I have no hard evidence here and I am only stating what I know and/or believe. Kind of hard to debate the truth when it's unfounded.
BTW I have almost decided on the XEDE system, did you see my thread in the Vishnu forum? I am leaning away from the safc/avc-r route right now for max tunability later down the road.
Yeah the B16 engine also uses a single-length intake runner. Those engines (especially engines outside the US because we are torque-hungry folks) are built for top-end performance. IIRC Comptech actually sold an OEM intake replacement which utilized a resonator box (!!) and everything with 2 intake runners for the B16, specifically to help out its wimpy 98 ft-lbs to the wheels max.
Regarding cooler/denser air, let's just agree to disagree for now. I agree that it's better to be cooler and denser, how's that?
I am just not certain on the delivery of said cooler/denser air and how the intake tract affects those temps/densities.I am basically saying that I have no hard evidence here and I am only stating what I know and/or believe. Kind of hard to debate the truth when it's unfounded.
BTW I have almost decided on the XEDE system, did you see my thread in the Vishnu forum? I am leaning away from the safc/avc-r route right now for max tunability later down the road.
Originally posted by webguy330i
Regarding cooler/denser air, let's just agree to disagree for now. I agree that it's better to be cooler and denser, how's that?
Regarding cooler/denser air, let's just agree to disagree for now. I agree that it's better to be cooler and denser, how's that?
BTW I have almost decided on the XEDE system, did you see my thread in the Vishnu forum? I am leaning away from the safc/avc-r route right now for max tunability later down the road.
I am lucky in that there is apparently an AWD dyno in Buffalo, so I am looking forward to tuning everything in 2-3 dyno sessions over time. I also hope the base tuning maps for the XEDE system will be adequate given the mods I'm planning and have started. We shall see sir, when are you planning (if ever) to hit a dyno?
Within the next three weeks. Need to get a boost gauge in and a test pipe here (for the dragstrip). I really want to see what the cat does on the dyno on 2.5" exhaust. I don't think it will be long before I go Buschur Racing turbo-back. Maybe Christmas.
I am thinking B&B turboback or (insert credible manufacturer of 3" downpipe here) + JIC SS/Ti catback (Spartan DE II). Can't decide!! I need more cash flow at the moment I'm tapped. 
Sadly I've sucombed to the aesthetical mods first (antenna, tail lights) while minimally starting performance (don't laugh now) mods (grounding kit, hks rs). I am really really excited about tuning this thing, it's like hidden horsepower just itchin to bust out!
My plan right now is to install the intake, get a turboback, MAYBE get a random tech cat (either that or a test pipe but I want to avoid throwing CELs all the time), then start on the tuning side of things. Will be going w/ the HKS SSQV once I can start adjusting boost/etc. which is one thing I really like about the xede system.
Sadly I've sucombed to the aesthetical mods first (antenna, tail lights) while minimally starting performance (don't laugh now
) mods (grounding kit, hks rs). I am really really excited about tuning this thing, it's like hidden horsepower just itchin to bust out!My plan right now is to install the intake, get a turboback, MAYBE get a random tech cat (either that or a test pipe but I want to avoid throwing CELs all the time), then start on the tuning side of things. Will be going w/ the HKS SSQV once I can start adjusting boost/etc. which is one thing I really like about the xede system.